8 ms·

It's not just us: Other animals change their social habits in old age

112 points by Hooke 2y ago

5350-uiop-1130 2y ago
good read. thanks. > "This [lack of movement] indicates there might be some kind of competitive exclusion going on: Perhaps more energetic, younger deer with offspring to feed are colonizing the best grazing patches." sounds like ageism in the job market (joking). i think there is always a simple thing behind motivation. hunger, violence, greed...humans just good at hiding the naked truth.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  We're good at focusing on our long-term greed and hunger over short-term greed and hunger.
  - xnavra50 2y ago
    Some of us aren't. Eating junk food, drinking alcohol, taking drugs and loans for new shiny things.
    - HPsquared 2y ago
      That's another thing with humans: massive diversity. Some are 10x stronger than others for example, or 10x better memory. There's such a wide variety. I wonder if any other species is as varied. I think this variation, combined with the ability to socially cooperate (language) makes us naturally evolved for the efficient division of labour. A group with diverse abilities has a few superstar specialists in each field who can lift the whole group via cooperation. The ability to cooperate shifts the risk:reward ratio of the species for this kind of risk-taking.
      - drewcoo 2y ago
        Disagree. We are much less diverse than many other species. We are a social species so we pay more attention to one another. We are also pattern-seekers. Combine these traits and we have humans seeing magnified differences in other humans.
        jhedwards 2y ago
        Recently I was struck by the fact that some people have an internal monologue and others don't, and some people can see vivid images in their mind and some can't see anything at all. These seem like very dramatic differences to me. I'm skeptical that we are less diverse than other species. In a herd in nature, exposed to the wild, exposed to predators and food scarcity, there is not much room for diversity: you must be able to survive. In human society, on the other hand, we live in an artificial environment insulated from those risks, and where any number of skills are sufficient for survival: you can be funny, musical, logical, artistic, patient and caring, mathematical, strong, good at fighting etc.
        jajko 2y ago
        Yeah but selective evolution lags behind right now by what, 10,000 years if not more? What I mean our selected traits are stil mostly from hunters/gatherers/early farming era. Those survival risk were and in some places still are present, stronger would simply have higher survival chances compared to weaker. Those skills you list wouldnt matter that much 4000 years ago in most cases, not on survival level.
        taneq 2y ago
        Physiologically we seem to be fairly consistent (especially given our relative complexity to a lot of other animals). Mentally? There's an incredible variety of aptitudes both in direction and magnitude. I suspect part of this might just be that we're a relatively 'new' species, and neurologically we've evolved so fast that the results are still a little random.
        ahartmetz 2y ago
        Regarding relative physiological complexity, I would argue that we are physiologically as complex as any other large, omnivorous mammal. There is nothing special about humans in that regard. Our randomness might actually be adaptive given the complexity of our societies. There is nothing close among other animals.
      - keybored 2y ago
        > That's another thing with humans: massive diversity. Some are 10x stronger than others for example, or 10x better memory. The sentiment variety on HN is, however, not so diverse.
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        In most other species the weaker, less able individuals are brutally weeded out by predation or starvation. Humans don't do that anymore so you see a lot wider variation in strength, beauty, ability, etc.
  - bumby 2y ago
    There's definitely some research around "hyperbolic discounting" and "dynamic/time inconsistency" that would disagree with this conclusion. There are many examples where we prefer a lesser short term payoff.
  - linearrust 2y ago
    > We're good at focusing on our long-term greed and hunger over short-term greed and hunger. If that were true, the modern world centered around consumerism wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have the obesity epidemic, environmental degradation or the genocide of dozens of native nations. Feels like short-term thinking where it's at.
    - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      I think in this case “good” simply means better than other animals.
- exe34 2y ago
  > think there is always a simple thing behind motivation. hunger, violence, greed...humans just good at hiding the naked truth our very emotions, instead of being some ineffable magical thing, can be described as monomaniacal neural nets trained via a genetic algorithm to optimise for survival and reproduction based on a dataset from the palaeolithic and earlier. greed, jealousy, lust, even the beatified versions like love and grief, are explainable this way. people don't like it when you explain that sort of thing though. they prefer to believe it's all magical.
  - meroes 2y ago
    If we’re neural nets, shouldn’t 12,000 years of post paleolithic experience be enough to have more modern emotions? All you’re doing is forcing people to choose something other than magic. You could name almost anything and they’d have to choose it over magic since magic doesn’t exist. This is not convincing at all.
    - exe34 2y ago
      > If we’re neural nets, shouldn’t 12,000 years of post paleolithic experience be enough to have more modern emotions does that mean you believe the Coelacanths should have evolved feet by now? evolution does not work that way. usually new structures are laid out on top, new behaviours come about that can override older ones at certain times and at other times, "instinct" takes over, and an old program is running again.
      - meroes 2y ago
        That’s sounding much more biological than a neural net now. Neural nets are much quicker to adapt to new parameters. Coelacanths and humans aren’t. Which was my point if 12,000 years isn’t enough whereas neural nets are rapidly changeable, maybe we can’t do this equivalence in calling humans neural nets.
        exe34 2y ago
        are you maybe mentally inserting "artificial" in front of "neural network"? if so, do you also see GPUs in biology?
soothingspirit 2y ago
I would recommend Frans de Waal's books to people interested in this topic.
jcfrei 2y ago
I believe (maybe someone has a study on this) one of the main drivers of changing social habits among humans is the ratio of dopamine / cortisol. When we're younger dopamine releases happen more frequently, we feel energized, ready to take risks and are optimistic. As we grow older the ratio of cortisol releases increases, making us anxious, risk averse and depressed in our outlook. Might be similar for these deer.
- bena 2y ago
  As you get older things hurt. The wear and tear one has put on their bodies adds up. For an extreme example, look at professional athletes. Drew Brees still had the desire and drive to play, but his right shoulder had simply given out. The final result of an injury over a decade ago. He cannot throw right handed anymore. A lot of these guys require knee replacements after they retire. Permanently disfigured fingers and toes. Etc. And we all go through a version of that.
  - jcfrei 2y ago
    So would it be fair to say that the increase in cortisol is also a protection mechanism? Since older bodies are less able to heal injuries the cortisol increase acts to prevent behavior that might damage them?
    - bena 2y ago
      I'm saying that it's quite possible not related to cortisol at all. Or possibly you have the cause and effect backwards. Because of all the wear and tear, we become more cautious about certain activities, which causes more stress, which then causes us to produce cortisol.
      - InitialLastName 2y ago
        Even just the chronic pain of old age (as seen in humans and other animals) would seem sufficient to cause stress. There's a reason painkillers are such a nefarious addiction; chronic pain happens to everyone eventually and has a profound impact on quality of life.
themerone 2y ago
I've seen this change in cats who lose their fear of strangers and become more sociable in old age.
- furyofantares 2y ago
  It's been dramatic when I've seen that with cats. Years of hiding from strangers, then one day they just come out and start sitting on laps.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 2y ago
  In my experience it's also typical for cats to get less interested in interacting with other cats.
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    Indeed. My cats used to religiously hang out in the basement on top of shelving that sits by two ground level windows. Those windows gave them the opportunity to interact with neighborhood cats walking around and there were smudges all over them from trying to fight them through the glass. Nowadays I rarely see them down there anymore as they prefer to simply lounge on upper floor window sills.
- rurp 2y ago
  Interesting, I hadn't read this before but it's exactly what I have observed with my cats. They have gotten dramatically more comfortable with people as they have gotten older. I have often wondered what spurred such a significant change, and didn't realize it was the aging itself.
lucideer 2y ago
I understand that even the most intuitive & seemingly "self-evident" truths need scientific research studies to be conducted to solidify our understanding & prove our assumptions, but I'm still always a little taken aback by the way science journalism presents these obvious (albeit valuable) confirmations as if they're surprising discoveries.
alsetmusic 2y ago
I assume a lot of this has to do with the deterioration of health. When I adopted kittens, the shelter paid to have them "fixed" (sterilized) for free but one was slightly too young for the procedure. A couple of weeks later, he got the surgery and his personality changed drastically for about a week or less. I was afraid it would be a permanent change, but he clearly just didn't feel good and that cleared up with time. I assume aging is a slower version of that just based on observation of older family members and the limited decades that I've experienced firsthand. If you feel physically bad, of course your attitude will change.
EncomLab 2y ago
My own little proof of this is that my dog has gone from sleeping on the stairway landing, to sleeping by the bedroom door, to sleeping next to the bed, to sleeping under my side of the bed. As he has aged and lost flexibility and sensory acuity he looks to me more and more for comfort and direction. Still loves to chase a ball - just takes a bit longer to bring it back :)

112 points by Hooke 2y ago

good read. thanks. > "This [lack of movement] indicates there might be some kind of competitive exclusion going on: Perhaps more energetic, younger deer with offspring to feed are colonizing the best grazing patches." sounds like ageism in the job market (joking). i think there is always a simple thing behind motivation. hunger, violence, greed...humans just good at hiding the naked truth.

HPsquared 2y ago
We're good at focusing on our long-term greed and hunger over short-term greed and hunger.
- xnavra50 2y ago
  Some of us aren't. Eating junk food, drinking alcohol, taking drugs and loans for new shiny things.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    That's another thing with humans: massive diversity. Some are 10x stronger than others for example, or 10x better memory. There's such a wide variety. I wonder if any other species is as varied. I think this variation, combined with the ability to socially cooperate (language) makes us naturally evolved for the efficient division of labour. A group with diverse abilities has a few superstar specialists in each field who can lift the whole group via cooperation. The ability to cooperate shifts the risk:reward ratio of the species for this kind of risk-taking.
    - drewcoo 2y ago
      Disagree. We are much less diverse than many other species. We are a social species so we pay more attention to one another. We are also pattern-seekers. Combine these traits and we have humans seeing magnified differences in other humans.
      - jhedwards 2y ago
        Recently I was struck by the fact that some people have an internal monologue and others don't, and some people can see vivid images in their mind and some can't see anything at all. These seem like very dramatic differences to me. I'm skeptical that we are less diverse than other species. In a herd in nature, exposed to the wild, exposed to predators and food scarcity, there is not much room for diversity: you must be able to survive. In human society, on the other hand, we live in an artificial environment insulated from those risks, and where any number of skills are sufficient for survival: you can be funny, musical, logical, artistic, patient and caring, mathematical, strong, good at fighting etc.
        jajko 2y ago
        Yeah but selective evolution lags behind right now by what, 10,000 years if not more? What I mean our selected traits are stil mostly from hunters/gatherers/early farming era. Those survival risk were and in some places still are present, stronger would simply have higher survival chances compared to weaker. Those skills you list wouldnt matter that much 4000 years ago in most cases, not on survival level.
        taneq 2y ago
        Physiologically we seem to be fairly consistent (especially given our relative complexity to a lot of other animals). Mentally? There's an incredible variety of aptitudes both in direction and magnitude. I suspect part of this might just be that we're a relatively 'new' species, and neurologically we've evolved so fast that the results are still a little random.
        ahartmetz 2y ago
        Regarding relative physiological complexity, I would argue that we are physiologically as complex as any other large, omnivorous mammal. There is nothing special about humans in that regard. Our randomness might actually be adaptive given the complexity of our societies. There is nothing close among other animals.
    - keybored 2y ago
      > That's another thing with humans: massive diversity. Some are 10x stronger than others for example, or 10x better memory. The sentiment variety on HN is, however, not so diverse.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      In most other species the weaker, less able individuals are brutally weeded out by predation or starvation. Humans don't do that anymore so you see a lot wider variation in strength, beauty, ability, etc.
- bumby 2y ago
  There's definitely some research around "hyperbolic discounting" and "dynamic/time inconsistency" that would disagree with this conclusion. There are many examples where we prefer a lesser short term payoff.
- linearrust 2y ago
  > We're good at focusing on our long-term greed and hunger over short-term greed and hunger. If that were true, the modern world centered around consumerism wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have the obesity epidemic, environmental degradation or the genocide of dozens of native nations. Feels like short-term thinking where it's at.
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    I think in this case “good” simply means better than other animals.
exe34 2y ago
> think there is always a simple thing behind motivation. hunger, violence, greed...humans just good at hiding the naked truth our very emotions, instead of being some ineffable magical thing, can be described as monomaniacal neural nets trained via a genetic algorithm to optimise for survival and reproduction based on a dataset from the palaeolithic and earlier. greed, jealousy, lust, even the beatified versions like love and grief, are explainable this way. people don't like it when you explain that sort of thing though. they prefer to believe it's all magical.
- meroes 2y ago
  If we’re neural nets, shouldn’t 12,000 years of post paleolithic experience be enough to have more modern emotions? All you’re doing is forcing people to choose something other than magic. You could name almost anything and they’d have to choose it over magic since magic doesn’t exist. This is not convincing at all.
  - exe34 2y ago
    > If we’re neural nets, shouldn’t 12,000 years of post paleolithic experience be enough to have more modern emotions does that mean you believe the Coelacanths should have evolved feet by now? evolution does not work that way. usually new structures are laid out on top, new behaviours come about that can override older ones at certain times and at other times, "instinct" takes over, and an old program is running again.
    - meroes 2y ago
      That’s sounding much more biological than a neural net now. Neural nets are much quicker to adapt to new parameters. Coelacanths and humans aren’t. Which was my point if 12,000 years isn’t enough whereas neural nets are rapidly changeable, maybe we can’t do this equivalence in calling humans neural nets.
      - exe34 2y ago
        are you maybe mentally inserting "artificial" in front of "neural network"? if so, do you also see GPUs in biology?

soothingspirit 2y ago

I would recommend Frans de Waal's books to people interested in this topic.

jcfrei 2y ago

I believe (maybe someone has a study on this) one of the main drivers of changing social habits among humans is the ratio of dopamine / cortisol. When we're younger dopamine releases happen more frequently, we feel energized, ready to take risks and are optimistic. As we grow older the ratio of cortisol releases increases, making us anxious, risk averse and depressed in our outlook. Might be similar for these deer.

bena 2y ago
As you get older things hurt. The wear and tear one has put on their bodies adds up. For an extreme example, look at professional athletes. Drew Brees still had the desire and drive to play, but his right shoulder had simply given out. The final result of an injury over a decade ago. He cannot throw right handed anymore. A lot of these guys require knee replacements after they retire. Permanently disfigured fingers and toes. Etc. And we all go through a version of that.
- jcfrei 2y ago
  So would it be fair to say that the increase in cortisol is also a protection mechanism? Since older bodies are less able to heal injuries the cortisol increase acts to prevent behavior that might damage them?
  - bena 2y ago
    I'm saying that it's quite possible not related to cortisol at all. Or possibly you have the cause and effect backwards. Because of all the wear and tear, we become more cautious about certain activities, which causes more stress, which then causes us to produce cortisol.
    - InitialLastName 2y ago
      Even just the chronic pain of old age (as seen in humans and other animals) would seem sufficient to cause stress. There's a reason painkillers are such a nefarious addiction; chronic pain happens to everyone eventually and has a profound impact on quality of life.

themerone 2y ago

I've seen this change in cats who lose their fear of strangers and become more sociable in old age.

furyofantares 2y ago
It's been dramatic when I've seen that with cats. Years of hiding from strangers, then one day they just come out and start sitting on laps.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 2y ago
In my experience it's also typical for cats to get less interested in interacting with other cats.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  Indeed. My cats used to religiously hang out in the basement on top of shelving that sits by two ground level windows. Those windows gave them the opportunity to interact with neighborhood cats walking around and there were smudges all over them from trying to fight them through the glass. Nowadays I rarely see them down there anymore as they prefer to simply lounge on upper floor window sills.
rurp 2y ago
Interesting, I hadn't read this before but it's exactly what I have observed with my cats. They have gotten dramatically more comfortable with people as they have gotten older. I have often wondered what spurred such a significant change, and didn't realize it was the aging itself.

lucideer 2y ago

I understand that even the most intuitive & seemingly "self-evident" truths need scientific research studies to be conducted to solidify our understanding & prove our assumptions, but I'm still always a little taken aback by the way science journalism presents these obvious (albeit valuable) confirmations as if they're surprising discoveries.

alsetmusic 2y ago

I assume a lot of this has to do with the deterioration of health. When I adopted kittens, the shelter paid to have them "fixed" (sterilized) for free but one was slightly too young for the procedure. A couple of weeks later, he got the surgery and his personality changed drastically for about a week or less. I was afraid it would be a permanent change, but he clearly just didn't feel good and that cleared up with time. I assume aging is a slower version of that just based on observation of older family members and the limited decades that I've experienced firsthand. If you feel physically bad, of course your attitude will change.

EncomLab 2y ago

My own little proof of this is that my dog has gone from sleeping on the stairway landing, to sleeping by the bedroom door, to sleeping next to the bed, to sleeping under my side of the bed. As he has aged and lost flexibility and sensory acuity he looks to me more and more for comfort and direction. Still loves to chase a ball - just takes a bit longer to bring it back :)