6 ms·

> I know this site is pretty pro-union If this site is primarily workers (as opposed to business owners) then I am not surprised.

doctorpangloss 2y ago
I'm a business owner. I am "pro-union."
- ayende 2y ago
  Do you have a union in your business? If not, why not? If yes, what is the experience like?
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Usually the pro-union business owners who don't have unions justify it like this" "I'm such a a good boss that my workers don't need a union, If I ever hear that they want to unionize I would be shocked and would think I failed" - Linus Sebastian of Linus Tech Tips.
    - Atotalnoob 2y ago
      Genuine question, if I was a business owner, how would I force my employees to join a union? Isn’t it a non-managerial activity (on purpose)? Seems like there would be very limited influence on creating one Linus’s position and other people like him is indefensible.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        In European countries, you do an agreement with an industry union, everyone on the building gets the agreement, regardless of how they feel about it. From this side of the pound, usually the large majority is happy with the benefits, even without being themselves union members. That is why countries with strong union culture have negociation rounds of industry leaders with the main union groups, to discuss how the sector will be handled for the current fiscal year.
- mrangle 2y ago
  Nonsense. Ultimately, it's a zero sum game and therefore there can not be shared interest between business owners and Unions. You may have detente or even just a laid back employee base. But you're only pro-Union insofar as you are financially and personally comfortable with what the Union demands at the penalty of consequences. Unless there is some kind of non-standard relationship between yourself and the Union, then there isn't a direct connection between what they will eventually demand and what you are willing to give at the cost of your business. Your pro-Union stance can only be solely due to lack of personal stakes, and therefore it is only a matter of time or a change in labor circumstances. Unless your vision for your company is as a total cooperative.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    Zero-sum games get more complicated when you care about the other players. >there can not be shared interest between business owners and Unions. There absolutely can. The point of a zero-sum game is that one party cannot win more without the other winning less. This is only a problem if all parties care exclusively about winning the most, rather than about winning enough sustainably. If you value your workers and care about them and want them to have happy, good lives, then you can absolutely find an alliance with a union. It's not like a criminal justice case where one side has to win and the other has to lose, it's like a divorce where if everyone maintains a level head and allows the existence of humanity in the other side, everyone can come out happy. It only becomes adversarial when one side decides to make it that way.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    >Ultimately, it's a zero sum game and therefore there can not be shared interest between business owners and Unions. The interests are misaligned, but is it really unbelievable that there's some minority of business owners actually 1. Do care about their labor? 2. Feel the best long term profit strategy is one of retention instead of the cheapest labor? 3. Whose primary goals are not to maximize profit margins?
  - 2y ago
randomdata 2y ago
I expect what is significant is that this site attracts an audience on the wealthy end of the spectrum. Unions aren't just for workers. There are also unions for business owners (e.g. farmer unions). Freedom of association is for everyone. But unions are ultimately a rich man's sport. They require funding and if they need to exert power they can only do so by withholding service. The poor are generally not in a position to act on either, especially the withholding of service. Unions embolden the rich, but can completely cripple the poor. So you find much less support when the money isn't there.
- geraltofrivia 2y ago
  I am sure your opinion is formed based on some experiences you have had in life. I would like to disagree. Unions are a tool for the poor, the people who don’t have a lot of rights, and protects them from the whim of the rich. If you are working a minimum wage job, and you are being made to work excessive hours, what is your recourse? What is your bargaining power? Okay, one answer may be to quit and try somewhere else since there isn’t anything to lose here. Well, I can tell you a very real scenario. My mother was working as a bank clerk in India. Has been her whole life. In the same bank (branches changed but she never changed the bank). When she was 50, there was a fraud. There was a transaction from a local businessman to someone, worth 3x her annual salary. She approved the txn. Once discovered, the businessman took the bank to court who in turn put the blame on my mom of will full ignorance. Businessman offered to settle out of court but we couldnt afford it, of course. At this point, the union came to mum’s help. They pressured upper management to get their house in order, not shift the blame to the tellers, and do not even think about firing her.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    > If you are working a minimum wage job, and you are being made to work excessive hours, what is your recourse? What is your bargaining power? That's the question. What is your bargaining power? All you have is your ability to stop working. Which, indeed, can exert power –– But if you are poor how long can you really go without work before you starve to death? The rich can afford to sit around and wait until the over side caves. But unless you working excessive hours is the only thing keeping a business afloat (in which case, what do you stand to gain?), most likely they can outlast poor you with ease. Once you give up, your power is gone. If you can't go without work for weeks, months, maybe even years, the business will quickly recognize your idle threat is just that. It is not just coincidence that unions are rare in professions where there isn't a whole lot of money floating around. > Well, I can tell you a very real scenario. This doesn't appear to speak to bargaining power, just communication. No power was needed to be exerted. If it came to a point where power needed to be exerted, how long would your mother have actually lasted? Assuming she could have lasted long enough, perhaps she wasn't as poor as you let on?

doctorpangloss 2y ago

I'm a business owner. I am "pro-union."

ayende 2y ago
Do you have a union in your business? If not, why not? If yes, what is the experience like?
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Usually the pro-union business owners who don't have unions justify it like this" "I'm such a a good boss that my workers don't need a union, If I ever hear that they want to unionize I would be shocked and would think I failed" - Linus Sebastian of Linus Tech Tips.
  - Atotalnoob 2y ago
    Genuine question, if I was a business owner, how would I force my employees to join a union? Isn’t it a non-managerial activity (on purpose)? Seems like there would be very limited influence on creating one Linus’s position and other people like him is indefensible.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      In European countries, you do an agreement with an industry union, everyone on the building gets the agreement, regardless of how they feel about it. From this side of the pound, usually the large majority is happy with the benefits, even without being themselves union members. That is why countries with strong union culture have negociation rounds of industry leaders with the main union groups, to discuss how the sector will be handled for the current fiscal year.
mrangle 2y ago
Nonsense. Ultimately, it's a zero sum game and therefore there can not be shared interest between business owners and Unions. You may have detente or even just a laid back employee base. But you're only pro-Union insofar as you are financially and personally comfortable with what the Union demands at the penalty of consequences. Unless there is some kind of non-standard relationship between yourself and the Union, then there isn't a direct connection between what they will eventually demand and what you are willing to give at the cost of your business. Your pro-Union stance can only be solely due to lack of personal stakes, and therefore it is only a matter of time or a change in labor circumstances. Unless your vision for your company is as a total cooperative.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  Zero-sum games get more complicated when you care about the other players. >there can not be shared interest between business owners and Unions. There absolutely can. The point of a zero-sum game is that one party cannot win more without the other winning less. This is only a problem if all parties care exclusively about winning the most, rather than about winning enough sustainably. If you value your workers and care about them and want them to have happy, good lives, then you can absolutely find an alliance with a union. It's not like a criminal justice case where one side has to win and the other has to lose, it's like a divorce where if everyone maintains a level head and allows the existence of humanity in the other side, everyone can come out happy. It only becomes adversarial when one side decides to make it that way.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >Ultimately, it's a zero sum game and therefore there can not be shared interest between business owners and Unions. The interests are misaligned, but is it really unbelievable that there's some minority of business owners actually 1. Do care about their labor? 2. Feel the best long term profit strategy is one of retention instead of the cheapest labor? 3. Whose primary goals are not to maximize profit margins?
- 2y ago

randomdata 2y ago

I expect what is significant is that this site attracts an audience on the wealthy end of the spectrum. Unions aren't just for workers. There are also unions for business owners (e.g. farmer unions). Freedom of association is for everyone. But unions are ultimately a rich man's sport. They require funding and if they need to exert power they can only do so by withholding service. The poor are generally not in a position to act on either, especially the withholding of service. Unions embolden the rich, but can completely cripple the poor. So you find much less support when the money isn't there.

geraltofrivia 2y ago
I am sure your opinion is formed based on some experiences you have had in life. I would like to disagree. Unions are a tool for the poor, the people who don’t have a lot of rights, and protects them from the whim of the rich. If you are working a minimum wage job, and you are being made to work excessive hours, what is your recourse? What is your bargaining power? Okay, one answer may be to quit and try somewhere else since there isn’t anything to lose here. Well, I can tell you a very real scenario. My mother was working as a bank clerk in India. Has been her whole life. In the same bank (branches changed but she never changed the bank). When she was 50, there was a fraud. There was a transaction from a local businessman to someone, worth 3x her annual salary. She approved the txn. Once discovered, the businessman took the bank to court who in turn put the blame on my mom of will full ignorance. Businessman offered to settle out of court but we couldnt afford it, of course. At this point, the union came to mum’s help. They pressured upper management to get their house in order, not shift the blame to the tellers, and do not even think about firing her.
- randomdata 2y ago
  > If you are working a minimum wage job, and you are being made to work excessive hours, what is your recourse? What is your bargaining power? That's the question. What is your bargaining power? All you have is your ability to stop working. Which, indeed, can exert power –– But if you are poor how long can you really go without work before you starve to death? The rich can afford to sit around and wait until the over side caves. But unless you working excessive hours is the only thing keeping a business afloat (in which case, what do you stand to gain?), most likely they can outlast poor you with ease. Once you give up, your power is gone. If you can't go without work for weeks, months, maybe even years, the business will quickly recognize your idle threat is just that. It is not just coincidence that unions are rare in professions where there isn't a whole lot of money floating around. > Well, I can tell you a very real scenario. This doesn't appear to speak to bargaining power, just communication. No power was needed to be exerted. If it came to a point where power needed to be exerted, how long would your mother have actually lasted? Assuming she could have lasted long enough, perhaps she wasn't as poor as you let on?