4 ms·

I wonder how Nazi-Germany would have worked out without antisemitism.

by croes 2y ago

samatman 2y ago
It would have had a different name. Antisemitism was the central pillar of National Socialism.
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  No, not really. It was a dumb ideology, but not as dumb as "points 1-10: Jews bad". Like almost any ideology that went anywhere, it had positive things that it valued, and these were more foundational than things (people...) that it wanted to remove or destroy.
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    The core of Nazism was that it viewed humanity as a struggle to the death between different peoples (such as Germanic people and Slavs), and that elements such as Jews, disabled people, homosexuals, communists, were like a parasite slowly killing the German people if not destroyed. It's really one of the most destructive and self-defeating ideologies ever, much more so than e.g. fascism in Italy and Spain.
  - samatman 2y ago
    Yes, really. I can't recommend reading Mein Kampf, because it sucks, but it's essential to have an informed opinion on this subject.
ponector 2y ago
There is a such example: USSR. Stalin is not so different to Hitler.
- racional 2y ago
  He was similarly evil of course. But he was a totally different creature (and came to and held power in ways very different) from that other guy. That said, one can certainly imagine a NS movement that left the Jews alone and concentrated its wrath the other usual suspects. It might not have achieved quite the fiery intensity, or had quite the degree of hypnotic effect that it had on so many people that it did without the singular choice of a primary "hate object" that it made Resonating as it did with centuries of psychic undercurrents in regard to the position of the Jewish minority in European society.
- cardanome 2y ago
  Complete opposite economic policies. State ownership and collectivization under Stalin, privatization and killing unions under Hitler. The "socialism" in the name was just branding. The Hitler-wing of the Nazi party was extremely right wing, especially in economic matters, and financed by the German industry. Anyone in the party holding sympathy with strasserism and the like was quickly purged or murdered. Asking how fascism without antisemitism would have have fared makes no sense, as having internal and external enemies is a crucial part of fascism. Pinochet in Chile might be an example where fascism wasn't particular antisemitic but I assure you it was still not great for intellectual development, on the contrary.
  - _19qg 2y ago
    > privatization and killing unions under Hitler. That was not defining for the economic policies under Hitler. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany The Nazi economic policy had one goal in the early years: forcing the German economy to concentrate on wartime preparations. Building up the military power and the military economy. All the companies were forced to work towards that goal. Many Germans were put into forced labor ("Reichsarbeitsdienst", ...) to support the build-up of the military and the military economy. Large amounts of weapons had to be developed and produced: for Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. The goal was to be ready for a large-scale war in the East in just 4 years. With the war started, the economy was mostly a state-directed war economy, private or not. Even though there were large private companies they were all directed to work for the war economy. The Nazis themselves were also involved in large scale industrial production. The Concentration Camps were also producing for the military. "Vernichtung durch Arbeit" (-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_through_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_through_labour ) That the Nazis were supported by leaders of the German industry did not mean that the Nazis were interested in privatizing, market economies or such. There was one goal: reorganizing the German economy to build-up and run the large scale war in the East. The goal was to colonize and enslave East Europe. Finances were concentrated on the war economy and other economic activities were no longer important or even possible. Companies involved would profit from it financially and expand. Companies involved in private sector activities would have a hard time. For example finances and raw materials was with priority allocated to the military economy.
_19qg 2y ago
> I wonder how Nazi-Germany would have worked out without antisemitism. That was often heard in Germany after the war. Hitler's politics were not seen as bad, if only the jews were not killed. Often, it was mentioned that Hitler's achievement was to reduce the mass unemployment after getting to power in 1933. "Nazism" is defined by more than "antisemitism" -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism * the main goal of the Nazis was to conquer and enslave East Europe. * for that the Nazis transformed Germany into a war machine * the war to enlarge Germany was the defining goal and everything was forced to support that goal * generally Nazi ideology was racist and brutal. There were lots of groups which were to be killed and/or enslaved. * it was a Dictatorship with Hitler as a "Führer" Even if Nazi Germany were not "antisemitic" it would still have started the war in the East to conquer East Europe as a colony (-> "Lebensraum" -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum ).
- cenamus 2y ago
  The "hunger plan" is also devastating to read about, just a whole different scale of murder and enslavement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan
amai 2y ago
Having a scapegoat was crucial for the Nazis. Without the jews, who should have taken that role? And without refugees and woke feminists who would the modern rightwings blame for all the misery in society?
- Qem 2y ago
  > Having a scapegoat was crucial for the Nazis. Without the jews, who should have taken that role? If they had arised a few decades later they probably would scapegoat immigrants.

I wonder how Nazi-Germany would have worked out without antisemitism.

by croes 2y ago

I wonder how Nazi-Germany would have worked out without antisemitism.

samatman 2y ago

It would have had a different name. Antisemitism was the central pillar of National Socialism.

ahartmetz 2y ago
No, not really. It was a dumb ideology, but not as dumb as "points 1-10: Jews bad". Like almost any ideology that went anywhere, it had positive things that it valued, and these were more foundational than things (people...) that it wanted to remove or destroy.
- Tainnor 2y ago
  The core of Nazism was that it viewed humanity as a struggle to the death between different peoples (such as Germanic people and Slavs), and that elements such as Jews, disabled people, homosexuals, communists, were like a parasite slowly killing the German people if not destroyed. It's really one of the most destructive and self-defeating ideologies ever, much more so than e.g. fascism in Italy and Spain.
- samatman 2y ago
  Yes, really. I can't recommend reading Mein Kampf, because it sucks, but it's essential to have an informed opinion on this subject.

ponector 2y ago

There is a such example: USSR. Stalin is not so different to Hitler.

racional 2y ago
He was similarly evil of course. But he was a totally different creature (and came to and held power in ways very different) from that other guy. That said, one can certainly imagine a NS movement that left the Jews alone and concentrated its wrath the other usual suspects. It might not have achieved quite the fiery intensity, or had quite the degree of hypnotic effect that it had on so many people that it did without the singular choice of a primary "hate object" that it made Resonating as it did with centuries of psychic undercurrents in regard to the position of the Jewish minority in European society.
cardanome 2y ago
Complete opposite economic policies. State ownership and collectivization under Stalin, privatization and killing unions under Hitler. The "socialism" in the name was just branding. The Hitler-wing of the Nazi party was extremely right wing, especially in economic matters, and financed by the German industry. Anyone in the party holding sympathy with strasserism and the like was quickly purged or murdered. Asking how fascism without antisemitism would have have fared makes no sense, as having internal and external enemies is a crucial part of fascism. Pinochet in Chile might be an example where fascism wasn't particular antisemitic but I assure you it was still not great for intellectual development, on the contrary.
- _19qg 2y ago
  > privatization and killing unions under Hitler. That was not defining for the economic policies under Hitler. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany The Nazi economic policy had one goal in the early years: forcing the German economy to concentrate on wartime preparations. Building up the military power and the military economy. All the companies were forced to work towards that goal. Many Germans were put into forced labor ("Reichsarbeitsdienst", ...) to support the build-up of the military and the military economy. Large amounts of weapons had to be developed and produced: for Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. The goal was to be ready for a large-scale war in the East in just 4 years. With the war started, the economy was mostly a state-directed war economy, private or not. Even though there were large private companies they were all directed to work for the war economy. The Nazis themselves were also involved in large scale industrial production. The Concentration Camps were also producing for the military. "Vernichtung durch Arbeit" (-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_through_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_through_labour ) That the Nazis were supported by leaders of the German industry did not mean that the Nazis were interested in privatizing, market economies or such. There was one goal: reorganizing the German economy to build-up and run the large scale war in the East. The goal was to colonize and enslave East Europe. Finances were concentrated on the war economy and other economic activities were no longer important or even possible. Companies involved would profit from it financially and expand. Companies involved in private sector activities would have a hard time. For example finances and raw materials was with priority allocated to the military economy.

_19qg 2y ago

> I wonder how Nazi-Germany would have worked out without antisemitism. That was often heard in Germany after the war. Hitler's politics were not seen as bad, if only the jews were not killed. Often, it was mentioned that Hitler's achievement was to reduce the mass unemployment after getting to power in 1933. "Nazism" is defined by more than "antisemitism" -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism * the main goal of the Nazis was to conquer and enslave East Europe. * for that the Nazis transformed Germany into a war machine * the war to enlarge Germany was the defining goal and everything was forced to support that goal * generally Nazi ideology was racist and brutal. There were lots of groups which were to be killed and/or enslaved. * it was a Dictatorship with Hitler as a "Führer" Even if Nazi Germany were not "antisemitic" it would still have started the war in the East to conquer East Europe as a colony (-> "Lebensraum" -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum ).

cenamus 2y ago
The "hunger plan" is also devastating to read about, just a whole different scale of murder and enslavement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

amai 2y ago

Having a scapegoat was crucial for the Nazis. Without the jews, who should have taken that role? And without refugees and woke feminists who would the modern rightwings blame for all the misery in society?

Qem 2y ago
> Having a scapegoat was crucial for the Nazis. Without the jews, who should have taken that role? If they had arised a few decades later they probably would scapegoat immigrants.