7 ms·
> Americans typically don’t realize how lucky they were And, with all due respect, many people outside the US don't realise how lucky the best minds were that
by heresie-dabord 2y ago
> Americans typically don’t realize how lucky they were
And, with all due respect, many people outside the US don't realise how lucky the best minds were that there was a stable, prosperous, (actively) welcoming society to bring these best minds out of the self-inflicted chaos of Europe.
- mantas 2y agoSelf-inflicted is a tad questionable. US played a big role in industrializing USSR. US also played a role in post-WWI peace deals which eventually lead to world war part II.
- kibwen 2y ago> US also played a role in post-WWI peace deals which eventually lead to world war part II. Woodrow Wilson's proposed peace deal didn't involve imposing harsh reparations on Germany. That was the doing of Georges Clemenceau, the prime minister of France, who was under pressure to make Germany's reparations bill as large as possible as retribution for the war.
- bojan 2y agoWhile that is true, it is really important to add that that doesn't absolve the Germans one bit.
- kibwen 2y agoIndeed, though it's also true that the Germans should be held accountable for their own actions during the war, and not solely held responsible for WWI itself, which was a continent-wide effort.
- globalnode 2y agowhy should they be? none of the so called winners are held accountable for their actions. best we can do is forget it all and move on, otherwise it will forever be a case of finger pointing.
- kibwen 2y agoBy "the Germans" I don't mean modern-day Germans, I mean the people of the era. And indeed, nobody should get a pass for the atrocities of war, the winners included. But no, we should not "forget it all", that's the worst possible thing you could do. The war happened, it was terrible, its consequences reverberate to this day, and we should all remember how it happened and why so that we can attempt to avoid having it happen again.
- mantas 2y agoThere’s another important bit. Wilson policies played a big role in creating fractured Central Europe in interwar. I’m personally torn on this. On one hand, this gave my country a chance for independence. On the other hand, this made a bunch of puppets for Germany and Russia to play with. Maybe a unified buffer would have prevented WWII.
- kibwen 2y agoIt's fine to speculate what could have been, but historically the record for regional "nation building" of this sort has been mixed at best, given the examples of former Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
- mantas 2y agoYep. But it was a mess either way. On the other hand, if there was some sort of Central Europe superpower building, Poland would probably have abused that. As it did anyway eventually occupying lands of 3 of its neighbors before being taken down by 4th… In any case, some sort of Intermarium probably was the only thing that could have prevented WWII in one shape or another.
- xwolfi 2y agoStill as a French, I think we could have done better much earlier. Much much earlier. The US isnt the cause of our problems, we are. We are even the cause of the US in the first place, you know, eradicating the natives, enslaving the africans, colonizing the land. It's ALL self-inflicted. But there was no sense of self at the time, what's new today is that Europe is starting, slowly and shakily, to see itself as a whole. At least I cannot imagine today ever wanting to murder a German more than a French. Ever.
- samatman 2y ago> We are even the cause of the US in the first place We appreciate the sweet deal on the Louisiana Purchase, but "cause of the US" is a bit much, don't you think?
- amanaplanacanal 2y agoI think by “we” they meant Europe, not France.
- achenet 2y agoFrance also helped out a bit during the American Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War (look at the combattants section)
- xwolfi 2y agoI meant Europeans, you know, we start seeing ourselves as a whole now, I'm not just French in my mind - the US was a "European" colony, with Spain, Portugal, France, Italy and the UK completely transforming the land. Without Europe, there would be no states to unite, right ? But ofc at the time it was very different, Europeans didn't exist per se, each country saw itself as completely different from the others. What I meant is accusing the US to cause a problem in Europe is a tautology: we made the US in a way, so if the US come back to cause issues, well, it's ALSO our own fault. Every problem in Europe is "self" (that "self" changed with time) inflicted, it's not the Asians or the Africans causing conflicts, there is no external factor to blame, we MUST fix them our"selves". Ironically, lots of problems in Africa or Asia were also inflicted by Europeans, they can claim an external factor, them. We really messed up a lot of the world, for reasons that are now beyond comprehension since we're raised by the people who stopped it, and it's a sin I have trouble to carry sometimes. Gladly, most alive today seem to have forgotten, forgiven or benefitted from it, doesn't make me forget those not alive today :(
- pfdietz 2y agoIt's my understanding that it's a myth that reparations led to the economic catastrophe in interwar Germany. What's more important is that Germany financed WW1 by borrowing. (EDIT: being corrected below.)
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago> What's more important is that Germany financed WW1 by borrowing. In such a situation, the reparations are the straw that broke the camel's back, and lead to an economic catastrophe.
- manmal 2y agoReparations were in the same order of magnitude as debt. In the end, it was 100-120B marks in debt vs 121B reparations (after reductions). Hard to find definitive numbers on debt as there are only estimations out there. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/100933.htm https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/100933.htm
- mantas 2y agoWilson policies were more about dealing with Europe after dissolution of Austrian, Russian and Ottoman empires.
- k__ 2y agoMost people welcoming them were probably of German descent themselves.
- pfdietz 2y agoLots of people of German descent in the US! In WW2, consider the names of the top US general in Europe and the top admiral in the Pacific.
- fuzztester 2y agoEisenhower for the general? Don't have an idea about the admiral.
- pfdietz 2y agoChester W. Nimitz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_W._Nimitz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_W._Nimitz
- fuzztester 2y agoOh, wow. I vaguely seem to remember that there was an aircraft carrier or other naval ship named after him. Read it somewhere long back, IIRC. Will google it, or it may be in your link. Edit: Found it in seconds, second para in your link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz
- pfdietz 2y agoThere is much to read about him. I suggest Ian Toll's Pacific War trilogy.
- fuzztester 2y agothanks, will take a look.
- 2y ago
- wizardforhire 2y agoIt was a real luck of the historical draw, talk about fan boys adding to canon! Just in quick succession and with ample room for pedantry. In Europe you have the Enlightenment with all that entails. Then in America you have Ben Franklin and then the revolution. Later Charles E Elliot gets frustrated and tours the great schools in Europe only to come back to boston and reform Harvard. Which leads to it being emulated at Stanford. Later on the US military decides on Stanford to focus on its microwave research for radar setting the groundwork for what becomes Silicon Valley. This is probably due a more indepth essay.
- heresie-dabord 2y agoI would want to add to such an essay the important details about how the King of France financed US independence and supplied a navy to fight the King of England on behalf of the US. But to limit ourselves to the outcome of WWII, there isn't much more to say. The US actively sought these brilliant refugees. The latter were glad to escape to a country that wasn't a murderous dictatorship.
- wizardforhire 2y agoAbsolutely! I really brushed over it, but for those that are one of the lucky 10,000… Franklin is a celebrity in his day, and is such a party animal and keen wit he wins over the french aristocracy. Leading to said fleet, which is undoubtedly the key factor in deciding the outcome of the revolutionary with their presence at the battle of Yorktown. But before all that he is going up down the colonies organizing philosophical groups, his Juntas, meeting and connecting the thinkers and subsequent founding fathers. While in addition running a printing press sowing popular dissent and none more influential than publishing Thomas Paine’s pamphlets. The dude was the original punk!
- fuzztester 2y ago>Franklin is a celebrity in his day, and is such a party animal and keen wit he wins over the french aristocracy. Leading to said fleet, which is undoubtedly the key factor in deciding the outcome of the revolutionary with their presence at the battle of Yorktown. That was probably also because he was a good diplomat. I have read his autobiography, which is very interesting, and shows how versatile he was.
- lambdasquirrel 2y ago[flagged]
- Rinzler89 2y ago>And it’s consequential because today, the U.S. does not have as much room in places with a reputation for the kind of diversity needed for e.g. a tech sector. What?
- gadflyinyoureye 2y agoPlease tell me which of the tribes that lost land to the US never stole land from another? Please show me a land in the world that never had slavery. Please tell me the origin of the English word “slave”. Please explain what your last sentence means.
- LtWorf 2y agoCheck when slavery became illegal in various parts of the world and get off your high horse?
- gadflyinyoureye 2y agoOh you mean like the Middle East where it’s still legal? Or Africa where it’s still legal? When you want me to look up dates, should my research be when various American Indian tribes made it illegal? My point with all of this is that humanity in general sucks. We only get better due to active, willful improvement.
- LtWorf 2y agoDo you have any sources to back those very interesting claims?
- pfdietz 2y agoBack when Europeans first started to conquer the new world, the world was still firmly in the Malthusian Trap, where populations were up against carrying capacity constraints (at the extent technology levels). I think this had pernicious effects on societies. Excess population made people expendable and callous. It would not have been easy to try to convince people to allow Others their rights. I don't think it's a coincidence that this flowering of democracy and liberalism occurred in a context where conquest had opened up land to expansion and had at least temporarily relaxed the Malthusian constraints.
- cratermoon 2y agoI wouldn't call it exactly "welcoming" https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-government-turned-away-thousands-jewish-refugees-fearing-they-were-nazi-spies-180957324/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-government-turned-...
- timeon 2y agoLot of us do. And with the defense, it is still relevant.