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He wrote this piece in 1989, and then went on and designed Monkey Island 2, which did things like having solutions to puzzels depend on other puzzels in differn

He wrote this piece in 1989, and then went on and designed Monkey Island 2, which did things like having solutions to puzzels depend on other puzzels in differnet islands in the most annoying way possible, on purpose. So you have that...

layer8 2y ago
That’s really ironic. I liked the idea of the LucasArts adventures very much, but they generally turned out to be too “puzzly” for me, in that you got stuck if you didn’t “get” what the puzzle wanted from you, you missed some object you needed to pick up, or you didn’t mindlessly try out every object-verb-item combination or every dialog path. And very often, things I wanted to try that seemed sensible weren’t possible.
- lo_zamoyski 2y ago
  > they generally turned out to be too “puzzly” for me Loom, I think, was like that sometimes, but Monkey Island wasn't too bad. Sierra's King's Quest series, however, was notorious in this respect, where the thing to do was something arbitrary you could not reason to in a million years. That's the kind of thing that sucks in adventure games. In real life, I can be creative to a very large degree because reality has content, specifically, to the degree that I grasp that reality. A ball of clay is a ball of clay, and because I understand what clay is, I know what I can do with it. But in a game, a ball of clay is just a symbol. There is no ball of clay. It is a nominal entity, an image or word plus some code that simulates maybe some aspects of it in very constrained ways (in adventure games, this is truly very narrow, as in, if user clicks these two things with this action, then show picture and display text, the end). And this might be okay if the author has arranged things sensibly, but sometimes you end up with truly bizarre ideas. You wonder how these things passed QA.
  - jamie_ca 2y ago
    The worst was King's Quest V, which you could play for 3-4 hours and soft lock yourself by deciding to go east into the mountains before you had done _everything_ possible in town and west in the desert. It didn't warn you you couldn't return, and if you didn't have an extra save it was back to the beginning.
    - Ekaros 2y ago
      Soft lock failure states are incredibly bad design... Instant deaths well, those can be acceptable with decent save system. But even Sierra in some cases managed to nearly entirely avoid soft lock failures... So leaving them in is well only bad work.
      - selimthegrim 2y ago
        The Colonel’s Bequest infamously had such a bug that prevented you getting 100% of the bonus points _even after following the official FAQ_.
  - NBJack 2y ago
    King's Quest felt particularly bizarre in some of the puzzles as well. I fondly recall the meager progress I managed in the 6th iteration, getting up that cliff, figuring out how to use the hero's ring as a bargaining chip, and I think I got to the minotaur part on the cover too. I got stuck too much to care, and put it aside. Then I got the full color walk through book. As I followed the guide, it was mind boggling not only how little progress I had made, but just how many different ways and paths to different endings I had missed! You didn't necessarily soft lock yourself as easily as others, but you could very easily screw yourself out of other options surprisingly quick. Then I played The Dig. By comparison, The Dig felt like an accessible masterpiece. I didn't feel like I was straining for the right hidden pixel either across environments. The story wasn't unforgiving. There were only two real endings, and relatively easy to backtrack to.
santoshalper 2y ago
Designing a good adventure game is much easier said than done. I would eventually love to see him write that annotated version.
ferfumarma 2y ago
> in the most annoying way possible, on purpose Can you elaborate? You are making a really strong statement of intent. I tried to search ("monkey island 2 design criticism") for what you might mean, but I don't see any obvious description.
- zug_zug 2y ago
  I'm not GP, but I've played a few adventure games and was very excited to try Monkey Island because of its sense of humor and style. But it felt basically unplayable to me (basically it felt like the only strategy was brute force), here's the puzzle that made me give up: Give the jawbreaker to Blondebeard to loosen his gold tooth, then give him the pack of gum. When he blows the bubble with the tooth in it, pop it with the pin and the tooth will drop out. Get the gold tooth, then exit the shop. (To get the gold tooth on Mega-monkey, chew the pack of gum to get the chewed gum. Inhale from the helium balloon, use the gold tooth in the chewed gum and then chew the tooth in gum. It will float out the window of the shop and land in the mudpuddle outside. Use the pie pan in the mudpuddle to get the tooth).
  - tripa 2y ago
    You're describing a puzzle from the Curse of Monkey Island, aka Monkey Island 3. Ron Gilbert had no involvement there.
  - NeoTar 2y ago
    That’s not Monkey Island 2 (Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge), it’s Monkey Island 3 (The Curse of Monkey Island), which Ron Gilbert was not involved with (I believe).
  - dsego 2y ago
    That was the toughest puzzle in Monkey Island 3 for me, I remember being stuck on it as a kid for a long time, weeks maybe, until we read the solution somewhere, either a website or a game magazine. And it was the one puzzle keeping us from progressing to the next CD I believe. My father, not understanding english, was one to try every item with everything, brute forcing his way around, even he couldn't crack it. I think on easy mode this puzzle doesn't require all the steps. The other tough one was the dueling banjos, I think I had to write down the sequences on a piece of paper. It's still my favorite game ever, left such a big impact on me, from the intro music, humorous cut scenes, drawing style, the sense of wonder and excitement, everything was just perfect.

layer8 2y ago

That’s really ironic. I liked the idea of the LucasArts adventures very much, but they generally turned out to be too “puzzly” for me, in that you got stuck if you didn’t “get” what the puzzle wanted from you, you missed some object you needed to pick up, or you didn’t mindlessly try out every object-verb-item combination or every dialog path. And very often, things I wanted to try that seemed sensible weren’t possible.

lo_zamoyski 2y ago
> they generally turned out to be too “puzzly” for me Loom, I think, was like that sometimes, but Monkey Island wasn't too bad. Sierra's King's Quest series, however, was notorious in this respect, where the thing to do was something arbitrary you could not reason to in a million years. That's the kind of thing that sucks in adventure games. In real life, I can be creative to a very large degree because reality has content, specifically, to the degree that I grasp that reality. A ball of clay is a ball of clay, and because I understand what clay is, I know what I can do with it. But in a game, a ball of clay is just a symbol. There is no ball of clay. It is a nominal entity, an image or word plus some code that simulates maybe some aspects of it in very constrained ways (in adventure games, this is truly very narrow, as in, if user clicks these two things with this action, then show picture and display text, the end). And this might be okay if the author has arranged things sensibly, but sometimes you end up with truly bizarre ideas. You wonder how these things passed QA.
- jamie_ca 2y ago
  The worst was King's Quest V, which you could play for 3-4 hours and soft lock yourself by deciding to go east into the mountains before you had done _everything_ possible in town and west in the desert. It didn't warn you you couldn't return, and if you didn't have an extra save it was back to the beginning.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    Soft lock failure states are incredibly bad design... Instant deaths well, those can be acceptable with decent save system. But even Sierra in some cases managed to nearly entirely avoid soft lock failures... So leaving them in is well only bad work.
    - selimthegrim 2y ago
      The Colonel’s Bequest infamously had such a bug that prevented you getting 100% of the bonus points _even after following the official FAQ_.
- NBJack 2y ago
  King's Quest felt particularly bizarre in some of the puzzles as well. I fondly recall the meager progress I managed in the 6th iteration, getting up that cliff, figuring out how to use the hero's ring as a bargaining chip, and I think I got to the minotaur part on the cover too. I got stuck too much to care, and put it aside. Then I got the full color walk through book. As I followed the guide, it was mind boggling not only how little progress I had made, but just how many different ways and paths to different endings I had missed! You didn't necessarily soft lock yourself as easily as others, but you could very easily screw yourself out of other options surprisingly quick. Then I played The Dig. By comparison, The Dig felt like an accessible masterpiece. I didn't feel like I was straining for the right hidden pixel either across environments. The story wasn't unforgiving. There were only two real endings, and relatively easy to backtrack to.

santoshalper 2y ago

Designing a good adventure game is much easier said than done. I would eventually love to see him write that annotated version.

ferfumarma 2y ago

> in the most annoying way possible, on purpose Can you elaborate? You are making a really strong statement of intent. I tried to search ("monkey island 2 design criticism") for what you might mean, but I don't see any obvious description.

zug_zug 2y ago
I'm not GP, but I've played a few adventure games and was very excited to try Monkey Island because of its sense of humor and style. But it felt basically unplayable to me (basically it felt like the only strategy was brute force), here's the puzzle that made me give up: Give the jawbreaker to Blondebeard to loosen his gold tooth, then give him the pack of gum. When he blows the bubble with the tooth in it, pop it with the pin and the tooth will drop out. Get the gold tooth, then exit the shop. (To get the gold tooth on Mega-monkey, chew the pack of gum to get the chewed gum. Inhale from the helium balloon, use the gold tooth in the chewed gum and then chew the tooth in gum. It will float out the window of the shop and land in the mudpuddle outside. Use the pie pan in the mudpuddle to get the tooth).
- tripa 2y ago
  You're describing a puzzle from the Curse of Monkey Island, aka Monkey Island 3. Ron Gilbert had no involvement there.
- NeoTar 2y ago
  That’s not Monkey Island 2 (Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge), it’s Monkey Island 3 (The Curse of Monkey Island), which Ron Gilbert was not involved with (I believe).
- dsego 2y ago
  That was the toughest puzzle in Monkey Island 3 for me, I remember being stuck on it as a kid for a long time, weeks maybe, until we read the solution somewhere, either a website or a game magazine. And it was the one puzzle keeping us from progressing to the next CD I believe. My father, not understanding english, was one to try every item with everything, brute forcing his way around, even he couldn't crack it. I think on easy mode this puzzle doesn't require all the steps. The other tough one was the dueling banjos, I think I had to write down the sequences on a piece of paper. It's still my favorite game ever, left such a big impact on me, from the intro music, humorous cut scenes, drawing style, the sense of wonder and excitement, everything was just perfect.