6 ms·

This is one of the best non-environmental arguments I've heard for the conversion to EVs.

consumer451 2y ago
Thank you. I have been trying to argue that the transition to EVs is a natsec issue for 10+ years. However, I am just some forum schmuck, and it has not been going well. Any help with moving this thinking up the chain would be greaty appreciated. A possible analogy: The Internet was designed to be a multi-path, decentralized, and distributed communications system to withstand attack. That's what EVs are for transportation.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Wait until you hear how ridiculously easy knocking out a power substation is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw&pp=ygUSaGFja2luZyBwb3dlciBncmlk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw&pp=ygUSaGFja2luZ..., Meanwhile, FERC found that knocking out just nine strategically located substations, of 55,000 at the time they did the assessment in 2014, would plunge our country into darkness. https://time.com/6244977/us-power-grid-attacks-extremism/ https://time.com/6244977/us-power-grid-attacks-extremism/ https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304020104579433670284061220 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304020104579433...
  - consumer451 2y ago
    Sure, but it's a matter of degree. There is no way that I can be off-grid with oil. Meanwhile, 6 months after the apocalypse all oil products have degraded, and my solar panels and LiFePo batteries still have years left. Also, post-attack, there is a huge difference in supply chain lag between setting up some solar panels vs a refinery.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      Ha; no. In such a situation, you'll be lucky to be alive and not have succumbed to the $5 wrench attack. Those solar panels will be a bright red target; and in such a scenario, the police aren't driving to save you.
      - consumer451 2y ago
        This is getting silly, but can you not agree that producing gasoline/diesel is more centralized than producing electricity in 2024?
        gjsman-1000 2y ago
        If we lose 1/3 of our refineries, we lose about ~1/3 of our gasoline. The prices shoot up to ludicrous highs, but it's still there. We might have to make an expensive deal with Saudi Arabia to fill the void, but at least that's an option. If we lose, according to FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission)... nine... of our 55,000 substations; the entire nation could lose power in almost all areas. Maybe our situation has improved since 2014, I definitely hope so, but think about this: 33% causing ~33% damage, or 0.016% causing ~90% damage. Which one is preferable? Here's a genius idea if you're Russia. Maybe things have improved and are 10x better. In that case, knocking out 0.16% of our substations, 90 in total, in strategic locations should do the trick. Combine that with rail sabotage so the parts to fix them don't arrive, and then you've done it. Just smuggle about 500 soldiers among the 2.2 million illegal border crossings every year, and that'd be enough to assign a team of 5 to each task.
        consumer451 2y ago
        Hmm, that's a solid argument. Thanks. What I didn't include in my original argument is distributed, off-grid capture of electrons. I would still argue that a national security priority should be increasing the share of EVs and distributed PV generation. If every person, and Amazon distribution center for example, could go off-grid and continue at least partial capacity.. that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?

Thank you. I have been trying to argue that the transition to EVs is a natsec issue for 10+ years. However, I am just some forum schmuck, and it has not been going well. Any help with moving this thinking up the chain would be greaty appreciated. A possible analogy: The Internet was designed to be a multi-path, decentralized, and distributed communications system to withstand attack. That's what EVs are for transportation.

gjsman-1000 2y ago
Wait until you hear how ridiculously easy knocking out a power substation is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw&pp=ygUSaGFja2luZyBwb3dlciBncmlk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw&pp=ygUSaGFja2luZ..., Meanwhile, FERC found that knocking out just nine strategically located substations, of 55,000 at the time they did the assessment in 2014, would plunge our country into darkness. https://time.com/6244977/us-power-grid-attacks-extremism/ https://time.com/6244977/us-power-grid-attacks-extremism/ https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304020104579433670284061220 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304020104579433...
- consumer451 2y ago
  Sure, but it's a matter of degree. There is no way that I can be off-grid with oil. Meanwhile, 6 months after the apocalypse all oil products have degraded, and my solar panels and LiFePo batteries still have years left. Also, post-attack, there is a huge difference in supply chain lag between setting up some solar panels vs a refinery.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    Ha; no. In such a situation, you'll be lucky to be alive and not have succumbed to the $5 wrench attack. Those solar panels will be a bright red target; and in such a scenario, the police aren't driving to save you.
    - consumer451 2y ago
      This is getting silly, but can you not agree that producing gasoline/diesel is more centralized than producing electricity in 2024?
      - gjsman-1000 2y ago
        If we lose 1/3 of our refineries, we lose about ~1/3 of our gasoline. The prices shoot up to ludicrous highs, but it's still there. We might have to make an expensive deal with Saudi Arabia to fill the void, but at least that's an option. If we lose, according to FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission)... nine... of our 55,000 substations; the entire nation could lose power in almost all areas. Maybe our situation has improved since 2014, I definitely hope so, but think about this: 33% causing ~33% damage, or 0.016% causing ~90% damage. Which one is preferable? Here's a genius idea if you're Russia. Maybe things have improved and are 10x better. In that case, knocking out 0.16% of our substations, 90 in total, in strategic locations should do the trick. Combine that with rail sabotage so the parts to fix them don't arrive, and then you've done it. Just smuggle about 500 soldiers among the 2.2 million illegal border crossings every year, and that'd be enough to assign a team of 5 to each task.
        consumer451 2y ago
        Hmm, that's a solid argument. Thanks. What I didn't include in my original argument is distributed, off-grid capture of electrons. I would still argue that a national security priority should be increasing the share of EVs and distributed PV generation. If every person, and Amazon distribution center for example, could go off-grid and continue at least partial capacity.. that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?