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Europe is a place to take social benefits; there is no tech, no innovation. It's better to sit on the couch and watch Netflix than start a business. There is to

Europe is a place to take social benefits; there is no tech, no innovation. It's better to sit on the couch and watch Netflix than start a business. There is too much risk, too many taxes, and too many regulations.

ab5tract 2y ago
Ah yes, innovation can only emerge from glorious pits of pain and hellfire.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
radley 2y ago
Spotify benefitted from starting in the EU.
- spongebobstoes 2y ago
  I haven't heard that perspective before, can you elaborate?
  - radley 2y ago
    By my understanding, they didn't have to pay for the exorbitant North American interactive music licenses during their first five year. The EU rates were much more reasonable (plus I think they got grants and govt support?), allowing them to test the market and grow before entering the US.
    - paradox460 2y ago
      They also let other companies prove the market had worth in North America, even if those companies failed Rdio, LastFM, Rhapsody, and Grooveshark all existed well before Spotify entered North America. Some of them actually predate Spotify
- lucaspm98 2y ago
  I don't agree with the exaggeration in the parent comment, but your one counter-example pivoted their workforce expansion to the US after openly criticizing Sweden's business environment. They took issue with the shortage of employee housing due to over-regulated planning restrictions, unfavorable taxation of stock options, and a lack of programming and development education. Those issues (less so education) are applicable throughout the majority of the EU. https://www.wsj.com/articles/spotify-founders-blast-swedens-business-environment-in-open-letter-1460479684 https://www.wsj.com/articles/spotify-founders-blast-swedens-...
  - tuna74 2y ago
    Most devs in Sweden would be very happy to get US wages so this feels pretty much like bullshit. Also, Spotify could open offices in other places in Sweden (or Europe) if they want to be in places with lower CoL than Stockholm.
    - bogantech 2y ago
      I can't see how the wages have anything to do with the points in the parent comment but you're never going to get US wages in Sweden as long as the unions are involved
      - dragandj 2y ago
        What stops Spotify from paying USA wages in Stocholm or other cities in Europe that offer good quality of living and thus appealing to software developers? Software developer unions are going to say NO? Do such unions exist? Can they control software devs?
        bogantech 2y ago
        Sweden has collective agreements where workplace conditions including pay are decided between the unions and the employers rather than the government interfering in the process. Yes even software devs are covered under this. Why would they want to move people around the world, deal with the unions who will force them to raise the floor of the local salaries etc when they can just hire the best talent in the US?
- self_awareness 2y ago
  That's why there is low risk for them to compete with anyone who didn't get EU funds. Even if the tech is better.
surgical_fire 2y ago
> no innovation So all innovation requires you to capture user's data for profit via advertisement or data brokerage?
- bamboozled 2y ago
  Had to laugh at that
- xvector 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    I wonder how much we are actually losing on this side of the pond with that. Maybe it is for the best. I don't really trust those billion-dollar companies.
    - Zpalmtree 2y ago
      classic, uh, actually it's a good thing we don't have any tech scene bringing jobs and innovation!!
      - burnerthrow008 2y ago
        This Is Good For Bitcoin!
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        > innovation Target Advertisement? Gig Economy? Er... We have different ideas of what innovation is desirable, maybe.
        xvector 2y ago
        How many gig workers have you actually talked to? Most massively prefer it over what they had before.
ndriscoll 2y ago
My impression is that many if not most KDE developers are in Europe. That's some of the most useful user-facing software that exists. Most big American "tech" has essentially no utility, and is built around mindless scrolling, spying, and ads.
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  No utility you say? i’d argue all of this is relevant to consumers and/or businesses in europe: • Microsoft windows • microsoft office (excel, etc) • google search • google maps • gmail and yahoo mail • smartphones • space-x (affordable satellite launches - for accurate weather forecasts and GPS) • OpenAI (pioneering LLM’s from a product perspective) • Visa and Mastercard networks • AWS / Azure / GCP • Adobe (photoshop, etc) • Zoom / Webex (Skype is an exception, created in europe) • Salesforce • DocuSign • AutoCAD I can list more if you’d like…this was literally off the top of my head. All of these businesses and products were created in the united states, some with VC funding. They employ hundreds or thousands of engineers, product managers, etc. They provide critical business capabilities to businesses around the world. Some are user facing as well. As far as critical business software Europe has created Skype, SAP, and i think that’s it? From the hardware side, major kudos for ASML and Airbus. The stuff you read about in the news is focused on bad actors and toxic social media junk. thats a small piece of big tech.
  - GreenWatermelon 2y ago
    > No utility you say? i’d argue all of this is relevant to consumers and/or businesses in europe: > > • Microsoft windows > > • microsoft office (excel, etc) > > • google search > > • google maps > > • gmail and yahoo mail > > • smartphones > > • space-x (affordable satellite launches - for accurate weather forecasts and GPS) > > • OpenAI (pioneering LLM’s from a product perspective) > > • Visa and Mastercard networks > > • AWS / Azure / GCP > > • Adobe (photoshop, etc) > > • Zoom / Webex (Skype is an exception, created in europe) > > • Salesforce > > • DocuSign > > • AutoCAD > > I can list more if you’d like…this was literally off the top of my head. All of these businesses and products were created in the united states, some with VC funding. They employ hundreds or thousands of engineers, product managers, etc. They provide critical business capabilities to businesses around the world. Some are user facing as well. > > As far as critical business software Europe has created Skype, SAP, and i think that’s it? From the hardware side, major kudos for ASML and Airbus. > > The stuff you read about in the news is focused on bad actors and toxic social media junk. thats a small piece of big tech. Honestly, this comment inadvertently proves the need to quarantine US tech. Almost every product you listed is utter garbage, especially Windows. There's nothing inherently better about Windows than Linux. Libre Office suit can become much better than MS Office if ot got enough suppoet - support that just goes away to M$ contracts. Google search has become utter garbage. Hetzner exists, and more Cloud companies would exist if it weren't for America's Big Tech having a competitive advantage due to their sheer size. Adobe is a shit company with shit behavior. I'd welcome its implosion anytime. Again, if the billions siphoned away for their licenses was spent on FOSS alternatives, we'd end up with such healthier ecosystem. Visa and Mastercard are leas innovation and more completely regulated duopoly at this point. Also, with the exception of SpaceX, I'd gladly welcome the complete implosion of all companies you mentioned. I'd love to watch them burn to cinders, while the world finally breathes free.
amai 2y ago
No innovation in Europe? Who created Linux? Python? ARM? ASML? Outside of IT: BioNTech (first Covid mRNA vaccine), Ozempic from Novo Nordisk? A fee seconds of googling is enough to show how ridiculous this claim is.
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  The trouble with these examples is that many of them are foundations or open source projects. They don’t employ europeans and provide a direct boost to the european economy. So yes there is definitely innovation but is it translating to JOBS in europe? Is python a company that hires hundreds or thousands of engineers, product managers, etc? no. Same with Linux. Also Linux was created by a european (torvalds) while he was living and working in the united states, and is now contributed to by engineers all over the world. I’d hardly call that a majority european innovation. A nitpick but I wanted to clarify that. ASML, ARM, BioNtech and Ozempic are great examples though, i’ll give you that.
  - GreenWatermelon 2y ago
    This is less a nitpick and more moving the goalpost. GP Talked about innovation, while you argue job creation.

ab5tract 2y ago

Ah yes, innovation can only emerge from glorious pits of pain and hellfire.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

radley 2y ago

Spotify benefitted from starting in the EU.

spongebobstoes 2y ago
I haven't heard that perspective before, can you elaborate?
- radley 2y ago
  By my understanding, they didn't have to pay for the exorbitant North American interactive music licenses during their first five year. The EU rates were much more reasonable (plus I think they got grants and govt support?), allowing them to test the market and grow before entering the US.
  - paradox460 2y ago
    They also let other companies prove the market had worth in North America, even if those companies failed Rdio, LastFM, Rhapsody, and Grooveshark all existed well before Spotify entered North America. Some of them actually predate Spotify
lucaspm98 2y ago
I don't agree with the exaggeration in the parent comment, but your one counter-example pivoted their workforce expansion to the US after openly criticizing Sweden's business environment. They took issue with the shortage of employee housing due to over-regulated planning restrictions, unfavorable taxation of stock options, and a lack of programming and development education. Those issues (less so education) are applicable throughout the majority of the EU. https://www.wsj.com/articles/spotify-founders-blast-swedens-business-environment-in-open-letter-1460479684 https://www.wsj.com/articles/spotify-founders-blast-swedens-...
- tuna74 2y ago
  Most devs in Sweden would be very happy to get US wages so this feels pretty much like bullshit. Also, Spotify could open offices in other places in Sweden (or Europe) if they want to be in places with lower CoL than Stockholm.
  - bogantech 2y ago
    I can't see how the wages have anything to do with the points in the parent comment but you're never going to get US wages in Sweden as long as the unions are involved
    - dragandj 2y ago
      What stops Spotify from paying USA wages in Stocholm or other cities in Europe that offer good quality of living and thus appealing to software developers? Software developer unions are going to say NO? Do such unions exist? Can they control software devs?
      - bogantech 2y ago
        Sweden has collective agreements where workplace conditions including pay are decided between the unions and the employers rather than the government interfering in the process. Yes even software devs are covered under this. Why would they want to move people around the world, deal with the unions who will force them to raise the floor of the local salaries etc when they can just hire the best talent in the US?
self_awareness 2y ago
That's why there is low risk for them to compete with anyone who didn't get EU funds. Even if the tech is better.

surgical_fire 2y ago

> no innovation So all innovation requires you to capture user's data for profit via advertisement or data brokerage?

bamboozled 2y ago
Had to laugh at that
xvector 2y ago
[flagged]
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  I wonder how much we are actually losing on this side of the pond with that. Maybe it is for the best. I don't really trust those billion-dollar companies.
  - Zpalmtree 2y ago
    classic, uh, actually it's a good thing we don't have any tech scene bringing jobs and innovation!!
    - burnerthrow008 2y ago
      This Is Good For Bitcoin!
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      > innovation Target Advertisement? Gig Economy? Er... We have different ideas of what innovation is desirable, maybe.
      - xvector 2y ago
        How many gig workers have you actually talked to? Most massively prefer it over what they had before.

ndriscoll 2y ago

My impression is that many if not most KDE developers are in Europe. That's some of the most useful user-facing software that exists. Most big American "tech" has essentially no utility, and is built around mindless scrolling, spying, and ads.

lurking_swe 2y ago
No utility you say? i’d argue all of this is relevant to consumers and/or businesses in europe: • Microsoft windows • microsoft office (excel, etc) • google search • google maps • gmail and yahoo mail • smartphones • space-x (affordable satellite launches - for accurate weather forecasts and GPS) • OpenAI (pioneering LLM’s from a product perspective) • Visa and Mastercard networks • AWS / Azure / GCP • Adobe (photoshop, etc) • Zoom / Webex (Skype is an exception, created in europe) • Salesforce • DocuSign • AutoCAD I can list more if you’d like…this was literally off the top of my head. All of these businesses and products were created in the united states, some with VC funding. They employ hundreds or thousands of engineers, product managers, etc. They provide critical business capabilities to businesses around the world. Some are user facing as well. As far as critical business software Europe has created Skype, SAP, and i think that’s it? From the hardware side, major kudos for ASML and Airbus. The stuff you read about in the news is focused on bad actors and toxic social media junk. thats a small piece of big tech.
- GreenWatermelon 2y ago
  > No utility you say? i’d argue all of this is relevant to consumers and/or businesses in europe: > > • Microsoft windows > > • microsoft office (excel, etc) > > • google search > > • google maps > > • gmail and yahoo mail > > • smartphones > > • space-x (affordable satellite launches - for accurate weather forecasts and GPS) > > • OpenAI (pioneering LLM’s from a product perspective) > > • Visa and Mastercard networks > > • AWS / Azure / GCP > > • Adobe (photoshop, etc) > > • Zoom / Webex (Skype is an exception, created in europe) > > • Salesforce > > • DocuSign > > • AutoCAD > > I can list more if you’d like…this was literally off the top of my head. All of these businesses and products were created in the united states, some with VC funding. They employ hundreds or thousands of engineers, product managers, etc. They provide critical business capabilities to businesses around the world. Some are user facing as well. > > As far as critical business software Europe has created Skype, SAP, and i think that’s it? From the hardware side, major kudos for ASML and Airbus. > > The stuff you read about in the news is focused on bad actors and toxic social media junk. thats a small piece of big tech. Honestly, this comment inadvertently proves the need to quarantine US tech. Almost every product you listed is utter garbage, especially Windows. There's nothing inherently better about Windows than Linux. Libre Office suit can become much better than MS Office if ot got enough suppoet - support that just goes away to M$ contracts. Google search has become utter garbage. Hetzner exists, and more Cloud companies would exist if it weren't for America's Big Tech having a competitive advantage due to their sheer size. Adobe is a shit company with shit behavior. I'd welcome its implosion anytime. Again, if the billions siphoned away for their licenses was spent on FOSS alternatives, we'd end up with such healthier ecosystem. Visa and Mastercard are leas innovation and more completely regulated duopoly at this point. Also, with the exception of SpaceX, I'd gladly welcome the complete implosion of all companies you mentioned. I'd love to watch them burn to cinders, while the world finally breathes free.

amai 2y ago

No innovation in Europe? Who created Linux? Python? ARM? ASML? Outside of IT: BioNTech (first Covid mRNA vaccine), Ozempic from Novo Nordisk? A fee seconds of googling is enough to show how ridiculous this claim is.

lurking_swe 2y ago
The trouble with these examples is that many of them are foundations or open source projects. They don’t employ europeans and provide a direct boost to the european economy. So yes there is definitely innovation but is it translating to JOBS in europe? Is python a company that hires hundreds or thousands of engineers, product managers, etc? no. Same with Linux. Also Linux was created by a european (torvalds) while he was living and working in the united states, and is now contributed to by engineers all over the world. I’d hardly call that a majority european innovation. A nitpick but I wanted to clarify that. ASML, ARM, BioNtech and Ozempic are great examples though, i’ll give you that.
- GreenWatermelon 2y ago
  This is less a nitpick and more moving the goalpost. GP Talked about innovation, while you argue job creation.