5 ms·

I don't think it's this simple: someone could do significant damage to the US's economy by sabotaging a small number of bridges that transit or cross I-95. Mean

I don't think it's this simple: someone could do significant damage to the US's economy by sabotaging a small number of bridges that transit or cross I-95. Meanwhile, Ukraine appears to be operating military railways with relative success, given that it's currently engaged in the largest European land war in 80 years.

KittenInABox 2y ago
You could bring the entirely of NYC to a standstill by simply abandoning a large bus or truck in a single artery of manhattan or one of the bridges. Literally just drive into a tunnel, then get out and walk off. The amount of chaos this would cause would take ages to get any towing services in to clear it.
- geodel 2y ago
  I wonder if Kubernetes/Cloud Cluster guy jumps in conversation telling how they could resolve this issue by using Cloud resiliency techniques. Real world has lot to learn from IT infrastructure management. :-)
- drjasonharrison 2y ago
  While many bridges and tunnels have tow trucks and operators stationed at both ends for normal vehicles, they probably do not have heavy-duty towing available quickly. These specialized trucks can tow other semi-tractor-trailers, dump trucks (both garbage and material haul trucks), etc. Extra points for putting the large bus or truck on it's side, requiring a crane or much more work to get it on its wheels. And you don't have to walk off, you can unload your electric scooter and zip away to start your new life as a fugitive.
  - KittenInABox 2y ago
    No need to put on its side. Slash the tires!
    - hollerith 2y ago
      Then light it on fire!
      - richardw 2y ago
        Dump the concrete! Put baby powder around the scene with bio hazard warnings!
      - brohee 2y ago
        The accidental Mont Blanc Tunnel fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_Tunnel_fire?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_Tunnel_fire?wprov=s...) puts it out of commission for three years, and that's a very important link between France and Italy...
- leetnewb 2y ago
  Buses and trucks break down all the time in Manhattan bridges and tunnels.
- imglorp 2y ago
  A stopped vehicle is a few minutes to tow clear. But add fire.... At least twice in recent times, a gasoline tank truck crash has destroyed a bridge that took weeks to replace.
- tjansen 2y ago
  That’s a nuisance but not economically threatening. Disabling railway permanently is a serious threat. Especially in countries dependent on railways for logistics.
- joecool1029 2y ago
  It doesn't take ages, they have dedicated teams for this as it happens pretty frequently in the lincoln tunnel that buses and trucks break down. There's a weird little specialized towtruck they have that can remove vehicles quickly and cameras are everywhere. Some details on it: https://www.nj.com/traffic/2018/08/how_do_they_unclog_the_lincoln_tunnel_when_a_vehic.html https://www.nj.com/traffic/2018/08/how_do_they_unclog_the_li...
cozzyd 2y ago
we accidentally self-sabotage our transport network routinely due to car crashes.
- soperj 2y ago
  and traffic.
  - okr 2y ago
    and frogs passing the streets from left to right. the other way around would reset the damage. but no...
    - soperj 2y ago
      was this a frogger reference?
dhosek 2y ago
Sabotaging the NYC water tunnels could make the city uninhabitable for years.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  ??? Um, sabotaging any city's water tunnels would make the city uninhabitable for years. Most frightening experience I ever had as engineer in my life: I was intern. At a place in a midwestern city where a city's water infrastructure can be monitored. Long story short, I heard "PING". Then three more "PING"s. Then another "PING". Then 2 more. Even as an idiot intern, I knew what the implications were with respect to tensioned concrete. I was thinking in my head, "8 feet diameter. 96 inches." But I couldn't remember the PSI because I probably had already soiled myself. Thankfully there was a grey beard there who coolly looked over at me and said, "Probably want to start shutting that down son." 2 things I learned. Calm is contagious. And our infrastructure is way more frail than should be the case.
  - heavenlyblue 2y ago
    What does ping mean?
    - rvnx 2y ago
      There are steel wires inside the concrete that holds the structure, and when they are about to break, they start to crackle ("ping"). https://youtu.be/RMZW1SX_rbk?t=48 https://youtu.be/RMZW1SX_rbk?t=48
      - mhb 2y ago
        Uh, how about a spoiler alert? Linking to the end ruined the first 75 seconds for me.
  - karaterobot 2y ago
    Shutting what down? Anyway, terrifying.
bilbo0s 2y ago
And let's not forget the premise is all wrong as well. It's frightening how easy it is for an foreign actor to knock out a country's railway system The attack on SNCF was not "easy". This was a methodical, large scale, coordinated attack. They knew what to take down. How to take it down with least collateral damage. And when each should be taken down. (Order likely counts here. You're trying to plug up tracks.) Point being, these attacks are not "easy". In a place with as much unrest and discontent as France has bubbling beneath the surface, the trains would go down twice weekly, every week, if it was "easy" to do so. A similar methodical, large scale, coordinated attack on our bridges would shut the system down as well. I won't even mention some other infrastructural assets that, if targeted, easily will shut us down for months because I think they are just that soft as targets. I honestly believe it would be irresponsible to even put the idea out into the ether. The takeaway here is that if you're dealing with large organizations, with even a modest amount of resources, and a grievance, you're likely dealing with orgs that have a lot of young people they can send to successfully carry out such attacks. Thankfully, these attacks still require a level of technical knowledge that seems to elude such groups. So it's just matter of keeping that information as secure as possible on the one hand. While working towards security and resilience of those assets on the other.
- nine_k 2y ago
  I'd say that it's "easy" with regard of the resources on the spot. No hundreds of brain-washed fanatics. No tons of explosives. No extensive concealed digging or something similar. No desperate suicide attacks or hot chases or anything else highly visible. Apparently no bucketloads of cash. It looks more like an elaborately prepared barbecue party: careful planning, getting all the details figured out ahead of time, coordination and, well, relatively calm execution.
- tjansen 2y ago
  I think it’s easy in the sense that it was only a single day attack of probably not more than a few people. What would happen if 50 foreign agents would do this every day over the course of months or years?
  - 2y ago

KittenInABox 2y ago

You could bring the entirely of NYC to a standstill by simply abandoning a large bus or truck in a single artery of manhattan or one of the bridges. Literally just drive into a tunnel, then get out and walk off. The amount of chaos this would cause would take ages to get any towing services in to clear it.

geodel 2y ago
I wonder if Kubernetes/Cloud Cluster guy jumps in conversation telling how they could resolve this issue by using Cloud resiliency techniques. Real world has lot to learn from IT infrastructure management. :-)
drjasonharrison 2y ago
While many bridges and tunnels have tow trucks and operators stationed at both ends for normal vehicles, they probably do not have heavy-duty towing available quickly. These specialized trucks can tow other semi-tractor-trailers, dump trucks (both garbage and material haul trucks), etc. Extra points for putting the large bus or truck on it's side, requiring a crane or much more work to get it on its wheels. And you don't have to walk off, you can unload your electric scooter and zip away to start your new life as a fugitive.
- KittenInABox 2y ago
  No need to put on its side. Slash the tires!
  - hollerith 2y ago
    Then light it on fire!
    - richardw 2y ago
      Dump the concrete! Put baby powder around the scene with bio hazard warnings!
    - brohee 2y ago
      The accidental Mont Blanc Tunnel fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_Tunnel_fire?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Blanc_Tunnel_fire?wprov=s...) puts it out of commission for three years, and that's a very important link between France and Italy...
leetnewb 2y ago
Buses and trucks break down all the time in Manhattan bridges and tunnels.
imglorp 2y ago
A stopped vehicle is a few minutes to tow clear. But add fire.... At least twice in recent times, a gasoline tank truck crash has destroyed a bridge that took weeks to replace.
tjansen 2y ago
That’s a nuisance but not economically threatening. Disabling railway permanently is a serious threat. Especially in countries dependent on railways for logistics.
joecool1029 2y ago
It doesn't take ages, they have dedicated teams for this as it happens pretty frequently in the lincoln tunnel that buses and trucks break down. There's a weird little specialized towtruck they have that can remove vehicles quickly and cameras are everywhere. Some details on it: https://www.nj.com/traffic/2018/08/how_do_they_unclog_the_lincoln_tunnel_when_a_vehic.html https://www.nj.com/traffic/2018/08/how_do_they_unclog_the_li...

cozzyd 2y ago

we accidentally self-sabotage our transport network routinely due to car crashes.

soperj 2y ago
and traffic.
- okr 2y ago
  and frogs passing the streets from left to right. the other way around would reset the damage. but no...
  - soperj 2y ago
    was this a frogger reference?

dhosek 2y ago

Sabotaging the NYC water tunnels could make the city uninhabitable for years.

bilbo0s 2y ago
??? Um, sabotaging any city's water tunnels would make the city uninhabitable for years. Most frightening experience I ever had as engineer in my life: I was intern. At a place in a midwestern city where a city's water infrastructure can be monitored. Long story short, I heard "PING". Then three more "PING"s. Then another "PING". Then 2 more. Even as an idiot intern, I knew what the implications were with respect to tensioned concrete. I was thinking in my head, "8 feet diameter. 96 inches." But I couldn't remember the PSI because I probably had already soiled myself. Thankfully there was a grey beard there who coolly looked over at me and said, "Probably want to start shutting that down son." 2 things I learned. Calm is contagious. And our infrastructure is way more frail than should be the case.
- heavenlyblue 2y ago
  What does ping mean?
  - rvnx 2y ago
    There are steel wires inside the concrete that holds the structure, and when they are about to break, they start to crackle ("ping"). https://youtu.be/RMZW1SX_rbk?t=48 https://youtu.be/RMZW1SX_rbk?t=48
    - mhb 2y ago
      Uh, how about a spoiler alert? Linking to the end ruined the first 75 seconds for me.
- karaterobot 2y ago
  Shutting what down? Anyway, terrifying.

bilbo0s 2y ago

And let's not forget the premise is all wrong as well. It's frightening how easy it is for an foreign actor to knock out a country's railway system The attack on SNCF was not "easy". This was a methodical, large scale, coordinated attack. They knew what to take down. How to take it down with least collateral damage. And when each should be taken down. (Order likely counts here. You're trying to plug up tracks.) Point being, these attacks are not "easy". In a place with as much unrest and discontent as France has bubbling beneath the surface, the trains would go down twice weekly, every week, if it was "easy" to do so. A similar methodical, large scale, coordinated attack on our bridges would shut the system down as well. I won't even mention some other infrastructural assets that, if targeted, easily will shut us down for months because I think they are just that soft as targets. I honestly believe it would be irresponsible to even put the idea out into the ether. The takeaway here is that if you're dealing with large organizations, with even a modest amount of resources, and a grievance, you're likely dealing with orgs that have a lot of young people they can send to successfully carry out such attacks. Thankfully, these attacks still require a level of technical knowledge that seems to elude such groups. So it's just matter of keeping that information as secure as possible on the one hand. While working towards security and resilience of those assets on the other.

nine_k 2y ago
I'd say that it's "easy" with regard of the resources on the spot. No hundreds of brain-washed fanatics. No tons of explosives. No extensive concealed digging or something similar. No desperate suicide attacks or hot chases or anything else highly visible. Apparently no bucketloads of cash. It looks more like an elaborately prepared barbecue party: careful planning, getting all the details figured out ahead of time, coordination and, well, relatively calm execution.
tjansen 2y ago
I think it’s easy in the sense that it was only a single day attack of probably not more than a few people. What would happen if 50 foreign agents would do this every day over the course of months or years?
- 2y ago