5 ms·

It is now easier to pass AP tests

22 points by impish9208 2y ago

krunck 2y ago
https://archive.is/mabJk https://archive.is/mabJk
science4sail 2y ago
I think that grade inflation is a tough topic. On one hand, you could argue that grade inflation is actually a good thing: if pedagogical methods are getting better over time, then you should naturally expect grades to rise if standards stay the same. After all, we no longer expect literacy to be limited to the rich and/or highly educated. On the other hand, grade inflation makes it harder to filter above-average students from below-average students. You could combat this by grading on a curve or by making exams harder, but this risks driving students into deleterious zero-sum behaviors - see Asian "cram schools" or American "tiger parenting". On the gripping hand, maybe grades are the wrong thing to focus on. There does exist the argument that all social classes need smart people, not just the upper-middle/upper classes. Perhaps we should be focusing on improving living standards across society rather than attempting to brain-drain the working class. But this sounds like exactly the sort of thing that would be used to justify aristocracy.
- dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
  > if pedagogical methods are getting better over time, then you should naturally expect grades to rise if standards stay the same That is literally the opposite of grade inflation. Words mean actual things, and making up a completely different definition is asinine.
  - Enginerrrd 2y ago
    I think this is overly dismissive and pedantic. The person you're replying to is speaking more broadly, and presenting a hypothetical model where we would expect to see something that looks ostensibly like grade inflation, but isn't. It's obvious that they understand this distinction, so I don't really believe your comment is all that constructive. In the context of the subject article, it certainly appears that there was a sudden change based on a test-grading change and thus score inflation is indeed what happened. However, it's still possible that the former panel-of-experts system was inadvertently a more relative grading system which was slowly adapting to better pedagogical methods and better performing students. For what it's worth, I consider this unlikely, but it's an idea worth considering rather than dismissing entirely.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  > if pedagogical methods are getting better over time, th This is a faulty premise from the get-go. Human learning, and teaching, go back hundreds of thousands of years. It goes back farther than any technological invention, before the knot, before fire (hell, we wouldn't have those but for teaching/learning). We've been doing this a long fucking time. If we weren't good at it, we wouldn't be the technological (or artistic, or philosophic, etc) species that we are. We've gotten pretty close to optimal, and we did that centuries or even millennia ago. We're definitely in an era of diminishing returns in pedagogical research. And if we could be honest, this certainly isn't a hard science. Hell, it's usually in the college of education, and not included in the college of social sciences. If we could believe that it was less of a pseudoscience than, I dunno, astrology, then I might even think that there'd be this principle of "we teach to maximize everyone's potential" and not "if done correctly, identical outcomes are possible for every individual". So, no, I have no evidence to support the idea that people who would've flunked 50 years before could magically be made to pass today with the same material. > On the other hand, grade inflation makes it harder to filter above-average students from below-average students. This is in part because the grade no longer signifies a measure of knowledge of the materials, and is rather a rubberstamp. But it is also the case that in coddling those who did not deserve to pass, there was no longer enough resources to properly teach those who might've genuinely earned a passing grade in the previous era. This is hidden anyway due to the grade inflation. >You could combat this by grading on a curve or by making exams harder, but this risks driving students into deleterious zero-sum behaviors - see Asian "cram schools" or American "tiger parenting". This is plainly false. If people come to understand that you can't cheat or force the grade through Asian tiger parenting, then everyone understands it's just pointless to try. And we return to uninflated grades. But that's a little too unprogressive, I think, for us to ever return to that outlook. Grade inflation is the proof everyone uses to justify to themselves efforts towards cheating grades. "See, dumb people can get good ones too if they just figure out the correct hustle!" Some of these are more admirable than others ("I'll just study 39 hours per day!"), but it amounts to the same. People who will never understand the material believing that this is not a fundamental barrier to success in that field cause all sorts of problems. > On the gripping hand, maybe grades are the wrong thing to focus on. If we do away with grading, how is that any different than giving everyone an A/4.0/whatever? Except, maybe it's a little less work for the instructor who no longer has to scribble down a letter next to each name?
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  > You could combat this by grading on a curve or by making exams harder, but this risks driving students into deleterious zero-sum behaviors - see Asian "cram schools" or American "tiger parenting". So people studying more is deleterious behavior? There's definitely a point at which is not a healthy childhood, but by many objective metrics (educational attainment, salary, etc) "Tiger Parenting" is a beneficial strategy.
  - trilbyglens 2y ago
    Yes but not when judging by life fulfillment or happiness. All tiger parenting does is instill a sense that the child is never good enough, or that they must work like crazy to be valuable at all to society, both of which are extremely harmful on the longterm.
drblastoff 2y ago
The IQ of the average college student has dropped from ~120 to 102 over time. College no longer the domain of a people pursuing intellectually-demanding careers. It’s become an expensive and completely unnecessary prerequisite for the general public, costing them a fortune not only in tuition, textbooks, boarding, etc., but also in the opportunity cost of delaying their earnings and career advancement by 4+ years. We’re now stuck in a fundamentally flawed system. By ignoring the problems, and actually making them worse by lowering academic standards and pushing the student loan burden to taxpayers, it reeks of either gross incompetence or corruption in our government.
- netsharc 2y ago
  And related to this, there's the failure of secondary schools to actually sufficiently educate children. Is it budget cuts, flawed curriculum, or (this is approaching conspiracy theory territory) a particular political party wanting to keep the population stupid, because a better educated population would vote against them?
  - HideousKojima 2y ago
    Definitely not budget cuts. School budgets have surprisingly little to do with educational outcomes. See Abbott districts in New Jersey for one of the starkest examples of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district Despite having better per-pupil funding than the wealthiest districts in the state (thanks to a court order mandating increased funding) student performance has stayed the same and even worsened in these districts. The single biggest determiners of school performance seems to be the level of parental involvement and the average IQ of the students. Well those, plus selection effects to bump up numbers: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-selection-bias-is-the-most-powerful-force-in-education https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-selection-bias-is-t...
  - bluSCALE4 2y ago
    Here's my experience. I went to a majority black school my freshman year and was initially placed into core classes. These classes were filled with clowns and I immediately demanded assessment testing to assess out. Once I was in AP classes, shit got real and I definitely felt like I got what I put in: I could have learned a lot but chose to do the minimum. I also felt like my fundamentals were so flawed that they had to grade me on a curve in order to not fail me. Of course this did me a disservice but I did put in a little effort. Anyway, the next year I transferred to a white school and they placed me in core classes again. Difference was that in the white school, these kids were chill so I was fine doing the bare minimum. In this environment, the bar was set so low now, it was easy to ace anything. I did take some AP classes that were challenging. So my hot take is that school is hard for those looking for a challenge and willing to advocate for themselves. I chose to take assessment tests. I went into the offices to talk to department heads. I never once told my parents this or anyone really. I just knew I wasn't personable enough to survive a year of "looking ass" jokes.
waswaswas 2y ago
Based on my experience taking 10+ APs 10+ years ago, the scores were already inflated. A 4 seemed like it indicated the student might understand the material well enough to build on it with subsequent study in that area, and a 5 raised the odds to probably. Never understood how schools could give credit for 3s, besides language where higher/lower scores could inform placement level in college.
SSJPython 2y ago
Why can't the US treat education seriously the way East Asian countries do? Or hell, even the way Germany does with its emphasis on vocational schooling as an alternative to university? Feels like the US picked the worst of both these systems.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  A lot of Americans don't actually value education, as in learning, they value the degrees. Once you understand this, you understand why parents push for backwards things such as grade inflation.
  - MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
    Let's put the rungs closer together.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Or hell, even the way Germany does with its emphasis on vocational schooling as an alternative to university? Increasing emphasis on vocational schooling would probably be a good idea from an economic (when viewed outside the narrow free market lens) and national competitiveness standpoint. I kind of feel like there may be some ideological factors going on, but I don't know enough about Germany or East Asia to comment. Are those countries more comfortable with certain kinds of inequality or are vocational professions more respected (or a little bit of both)?
  - cjpearson 2y ago
    In Germany I think it's a bit of both. Beginning in 5th grade, pupils attend different schools. It differs a bit between the states, but generally those in the university track schools (gymnasium) will attend secondary school until 12th or 13th grade then go on to university while the other schools finish at 9th or 10th grade. Those students can then begin working, take an apprenticeship or attend vocational school. While it may be beneficial to have support for apprenticeships and vocational training, it's controversial that the decision point is made so early. At that age, it may be less about the child's ambitions and abilities and more about the family's resources and social class.
galdosdi 2y ago
Ugh. Which will reduce their value to middle and working class families who could otherwise use strong educational values to help their kids rise, since getting a pile of 5s despite going to a mediocre public school will be less impressive. Just like deemphasizing SATs.
stanleykm 2y ago
> Some skeptical teachers, test-prep companies and college administrators see the recent changes as another form of grade inflation, and a way to boost the organization’s business by making AP courses seem more attractive. Yes. Of course. Some people in the comments will lament letting the dum dums into college but that’s not the problem. The problem is we consistently see this pattern across our society. Profit above all else. Our entire society in the western world now is a big game to extract as many dollars (sorry, value) from each other as possible through any means necessary. And we are not learning our lesson.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  The vast majority of schools and colleges are purportedly not for profit.
  - stanleykm 2y ago
    The paragraph I quoted is about AP making their tests easier to sell more courses.
    - brigadier132 2y ago
      I know, I was just trying to make the point that profit incentive can't solely be blamed for the degradation of education in this country.
tootie 2y ago
Kinda short on analysis. This could be grade inflation, it could be better prep or even cheating. Or just a short-term statistical aberration that regresses to the mean in a year or two.
DiscourseFan 2y ago
AP is a scam, ought to be banned entirely by the dept of education. Yes SATs are good for class mobility, but they shouldn’t exist for the same reason: because they are a profit motive for a large org that has captured most of the market. High school should not be about preparing for college.
- jrgaston 2y ago
  A scam? Really? I taught AP along with non-AP chemistry for a number of years and I think the AP program is a good fit for those students who plan on going to university, especially those interested in the sciences. In two semesters we covered almost the full range of chemistry topics (only organic was slighted) and the students came out well prepared for college chemistry. The value in an AP course, to my mind, is not the AP exam. It's that the class has the depth and the pace of a college class. Even those who barely passed my course knew a lot more chem than those in the non-AP class.
1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
Works where archive.is is blocked: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/it-is-now-easier-to-pass-ap-tests/ar-BB1qFqwY https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/it-is-no... Text-only: https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/BB1qFqwY https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/BB1qFqwY

22 points by impish9208 2y ago

https://archive.is/mabJk https://archive.is/mabJk

I think that grade inflation is a tough topic. On one hand, you could argue that grade inflation is actually a good thing: if pedagogical methods are getting better over time, then you should naturally expect grades to rise if standards stay the same. After all, we no longer expect literacy to be limited to the rich and/or highly educated. On the other hand, grade inflation makes it harder to filter above-average students from below-average students. You could combat this by grading on a curve or by making exams harder, but this risks driving students into deleterious zero-sum behaviors - see Asian "cram schools" or American "tiger parenting". On the gripping hand, maybe grades are the wrong thing to focus on. There does exist the argument that all social classes need smart people, not just the upper-middle/upper classes. Perhaps we should be focusing on improving living standards across society rather than attempting to brain-drain the working class. But this sounds like exactly the sort of thing that would be used to justify aristocracy.

dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
> if pedagogical methods are getting better over time, then you should naturally expect grades to rise if standards stay the same That is literally the opposite of grade inflation. Words mean actual things, and making up a completely different definition is asinine.
- Enginerrrd 2y ago
  I think this is overly dismissive and pedantic. The person you're replying to is speaking more broadly, and presenting a hypothetical model where we would expect to see something that looks ostensibly like grade inflation, but isn't. It's obvious that they understand this distinction, so I don't really believe your comment is all that constructive. In the context of the subject article, it certainly appears that there was a sudden change based on a test-grading change and thus score inflation is indeed what happened. However, it's still possible that the former panel-of-experts system was inadvertently a more relative grading system which was slowly adapting to better pedagogical methods and better performing students. For what it's worth, I consider this unlikely, but it's an idea worth considering rather than dismissing entirely.
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
> if pedagogical methods are getting better over time, th This is a faulty premise from the get-go. Human learning, and teaching, go back hundreds of thousands of years. It goes back farther than any technological invention, before the knot, before fire (hell, we wouldn't have those but for teaching/learning). We've been doing this a long fucking time. If we weren't good at it, we wouldn't be the technological (or artistic, or philosophic, etc) species that we are. We've gotten pretty close to optimal, and we did that centuries or even millennia ago. We're definitely in an era of diminishing returns in pedagogical research. And if we could be honest, this certainly isn't a hard science. Hell, it's usually in the college of education, and not included in the college of social sciences. If we could believe that it was less of a pseudoscience than, I dunno, astrology, then I might even think that there'd be this principle of "we teach to maximize everyone's potential" and not "if done correctly, identical outcomes are possible for every individual". So, no, I have no evidence to support the idea that people who would've flunked 50 years before could magically be made to pass today with the same material. > On the other hand, grade inflation makes it harder to filter above-average students from below-average students. This is in part because the grade no longer signifies a measure of knowledge of the materials, and is rather a rubberstamp. But it is also the case that in coddling those who did not deserve to pass, there was no longer enough resources to properly teach those who might've genuinely earned a passing grade in the previous era. This is hidden anyway due to the grade inflation. >You could combat this by grading on a curve or by making exams harder, but this risks driving students into deleterious zero-sum behaviors - see Asian "cram schools" or American "tiger parenting". This is plainly false. If people come to understand that you can't cheat or force the grade through Asian tiger parenting, then everyone understands it's just pointless to try. And we return to uninflated grades. But that's a little too unprogressive, I think, for us to ever return to that outlook. Grade inflation is the proof everyone uses to justify to themselves efforts towards cheating grades. "See, dumb people can get good ones too if they just figure out the correct hustle!" Some of these are more admirable than others ("I'll just study 39 hours per day!"), but it amounts to the same. People who will never understand the material believing that this is not a fundamental barrier to success in that field cause all sorts of problems. > On the gripping hand, maybe grades are the wrong thing to focus on. If we do away with grading, how is that any different than giving everyone an A/4.0/whatever? Except, maybe it's a little less work for the instructor who no longer has to scribble down a letter next to each name?
Manuel_D 2y ago
> You could combat this by grading on a curve or by making exams harder, but this risks driving students into deleterious zero-sum behaviors - see Asian "cram schools" or American "tiger parenting". So people studying more is deleterious behavior? There's definitely a point at which is not a healthy childhood, but by many objective metrics (educational attainment, salary, etc) "Tiger Parenting" is a beneficial strategy.
- trilbyglens 2y ago
  Yes but not when judging by life fulfillment or happiness. All tiger parenting does is instill a sense that the child is never good enough, or that they must work like crazy to be valuable at all to society, both of which are extremely harmful on the longterm.

drblastoff 2y ago

The IQ of the average college student has dropped from ~120 to 102 over time. College no longer the domain of a people pursuing intellectually-demanding careers. It’s become an expensive and completely unnecessary prerequisite for the general public, costing them a fortune not only in tuition, textbooks, boarding, etc., but also in the opportunity cost of delaying their earnings and career advancement by 4+ years. We’re now stuck in a fundamentally flawed system. By ignoring the problems, and actually making them worse by lowering academic standards and pushing the student loan burden to taxpayers, it reeks of either gross incompetence or corruption in our government.

netsharc 2y ago
And related to this, there's the failure of secondary schools to actually sufficiently educate children. Is it budget cuts, flawed curriculum, or (this is approaching conspiracy theory territory) a particular political party wanting to keep the population stupid, because a better educated population would vote against them?
- HideousKojima 2y ago
  Definitely not budget cuts. School budgets have surprisingly little to do with educational outcomes. See Abbott districts in New Jersey for one of the starkest examples of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district Despite having better per-pupil funding than the wealthiest districts in the state (thanks to a court order mandating increased funding) student performance has stayed the same and even worsened in these districts. The single biggest determiners of school performance seems to be the level of parental involvement and the average IQ of the students. Well those, plus selection effects to bump up numbers: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-selection-bias-is-the-most-powerful-force-in-education https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-selection-bias-is-t...
- bluSCALE4 2y ago
  Here's my experience. I went to a majority black school my freshman year and was initially placed into core classes. These classes were filled with clowns and I immediately demanded assessment testing to assess out. Once I was in AP classes, shit got real and I definitely felt like I got what I put in: I could have learned a lot but chose to do the minimum. I also felt like my fundamentals were so flawed that they had to grade me on a curve in order to not fail me. Of course this did me a disservice but I did put in a little effort. Anyway, the next year I transferred to a white school and they placed me in core classes again. Difference was that in the white school, these kids were chill so I was fine doing the bare minimum. In this environment, the bar was set so low now, it was easy to ace anything. I did take some AP classes that were challenging. So my hot take is that school is hard for those looking for a challenge and willing to advocate for themselves. I chose to take assessment tests. I went into the offices to talk to department heads. I never once told my parents this or anyone really. I just knew I wasn't personable enough to survive a year of "looking ass" jokes.

waswaswas 2y ago

Based on my experience taking 10+ APs 10+ years ago, the scores were already inflated. A 4 seemed like it indicated the student might understand the material well enough to build on it with subsequent study in that area, and a 5 raised the odds to probably. Never understood how schools could give credit for 3s, besides language where higher/lower scores could inform placement level in college.

SSJPython 2y ago

Why can't the US treat education seriously the way East Asian countries do? Or hell, even the way Germany does with its emphasis on vocational schooling as an alternative to university? Feels like the US picked the worst of both these systems.

brigadier132 2y ago
A lot of Americans don't actually value education, as in learning, they value the degrees. Once you understand this, you understand why parents push for backwards things such as grade inflation.
- MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
  Let's put the rungs closer together.
tivert 2y ago
> Or hell, even the way Germany does with its emphasis on vocational schooling as an alternative to university? Increasing emphasis on vocational schooling would probably be a good idea from an economic (when viewed outside the narrow free market lens) and national competitiveness standpoint. I kind of feel like there may be some ideological factors going on, but I don't know enough about Germany or East Asia to comment. Are those countries more comfortable with certain kinds of inequality or are vocational professions more respected (or a little bit of both)?
- cjpearson 2y ago
  In Germany I think it's a bit of both. Beginning in 5th grade, pupils attend different schools. It differs a bit between the states, but generally those in the university track schools (gymnasium) will attend secondary school until 12th or 13th grade then go on to university while the other schools finish at 9th or 10th grade. Those students can then begin working, take an apprenticeship or attend vocational school. While it may be beneficial to have support for apprenticeships and vocational training, it's controversial that the decision point is made so early. At that age, it may be less about the child's ambitions and abilities and more about the family's resources and social class.

galdosdi 2y ago

Ugh. Which will reduce their value to middle and working class families who could otherwise use strong educational values to help their kids rise, since getting a pile of 5s despite going to a mediocre public school will be less impressive. Just like deemphasizing SATs.

stanleykm 2y ago

> Some skeptical teachers, test-prep companies and college administrators see the recent changes as another form of grade inflation, and a way to boost the organization’s business by making AP courses seem more attractive. Yes. Of course. Some people in the comments will lament letting the dum dums into college but that’s not the problem. The problem is we consistently see this pattern across our society. Profit above all else. Our entire society in the western world now is a big game to extract as many dollars (sorry, value) from each other as possible through any means necessary. And we are not learning our lesson.

brigadier132 2y ago
The vast majority of schools and colleges are purportedly not for profit.
- stanleykm 2y ago
  The paragraph I quoted is about AP making their tests easier to sell more courses.
  - brigadier132 2y ago
    I know, I was just trying to make the point that profit incentive can't solely be blamed for the degradation of education in this country.

tootie 2y ago

Kinda short on analysis. This could be grade inflation, it could be better prep or even cheating. Or just a short-term statistical aberration that regresses to the mean in a year or two.

DiscourseFan 2y ago

AP is a scam, ought to be banned entirely by the dept of education. Yes SATs are good for class mobility, but they shouldn’t exist for the same reason: because they are a profit motive for a large org that has captured most of the market. High school should not be about preparing for college.

jrgaston 2y ago
A scam? Really? I taught AP along with non-AP chemistry for a number of years and I think the AP program is a good fit for those students who plan on going to university, especially those interested in the sciences. In two semesters we covered almost the full range of chemistry topics (only organic was slighted) and the students came out well prepared for college chemistry. The value in an AP course, to my mind, is not the AP exam. It's that the class has the depth and the pace of a college class. Even those who barely passed my course knew a lot more chem than those in the non-AP class.

1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago

Works where archive.is is blocked: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/it-is-now-easier-to-pass-ap-tests/ar-BB1qFqwY https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/it-is-no... Text-only: https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/BB1qFqwY https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/BB1qFqwY