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> “The result is that seizing our servers when powered off will yield no more information than seizing RAM-only servers.” This is just false. If your servers a

> “The result is that seizing our servers when powered off will yield no more information than seizing RAM-only servers.” This is just false. If your servers are seized I guarantee they also want your disk encryption password. How to prevent it? No disk, and no way into the OS without booting it with some special arguments.

malfist 2y ago
Absolutely, and while there are some technical tricks to retrieve RAM values after power loss, it's a hell of a lot easier to demand a decryption key. Remember, the courts consider decryption keys just like house keys, they can be demanded by the police and are not protected by the fifth amendment
- ssl232 2y ago
  > they can be demanded by the police and are not protected by the fifth amendment *Within the USA.
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  > Remember, the courts consider decryption keys just like house keys, they can be demanded by the police and are not protected by the fifth amendment Proton VPN is based in Switzerland where the fifth amendment doesn’t apply anyway as a US-specific constitutional concept. They might have stronger or weaker protections in this area, I don’t know, but not the fifth amendment.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Daviey 2y ago
  Is Proton subject to fifth amendment regardless?
  - jkaplowitz 2y ago
    Not the US fifth amendment, no. (Edit: it does apply in cases where they are dealing within the US with officials at any level of US government, or when making statements to US officials who are conducting a custodial interrogation abroad.) They are based in a country with more than five amendments to its current federal constitution, but since they are unlikely to want to construct a minaret, the prohibition on doing so in the current Swiss federal constitution’s fifth amendment doesn’t affect them in any meaningful way.
    - re-thc 2y ago
      > Not the US fifth amendment, no. They are based in a country... Do we really assume not being in the US directly fixes everything? When... - Most social media used is US-based - Phone markets like Android and iOS are US-based - Browser stores like Chrome are US-based - They have US-based servers - They have US-based customers - They have customers specifically wanting to access US-based content The list goes on... And they even have a .com domain, which is US-based.
      - jkaplowitz 2y ago
        > Do we really assume not being in the US directly fixes everything? Nobody said anything about fixing everything. When the US fifth amendment doesn’t apply, people have fewer protections from the US government, not more. Also, I should correct myself slightly on when the US fifth amendment applies: in the rare case where US officials do conduct a custodial interrogation abroad, US courts will recognize the US fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination for statements made to those US officials in that context, even for statements made by foreign nationals. But US courts will not recognize those rights for statements made to foreign officials, outside of two rarely applicable exceptions. Also, of course, dealings within the US with US government officials are constitutionally protected for all nationalities. I’ve edited my comment upthread accordingly. With respect to Proton’s home government of Switzerland, they might have more protections or fewer protections than the US fifth amendment offers versus the US government when it does apply - I have no idea and avoided making any assertion either way about that.
    - 2y ago
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    If they are accused by the US of a crime, they could be extradited there because Switzerland has a treaty for that.
    - Daviey 2y ago
      Good luck with that, Article 7 of the Swiss Federal Act on International Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters states that Swiss citizens may not be extradited to a foreign country without their written consent. This protection of citizens from extradition is a longstanding tradition in Swiss law.
      - ranger_danger 2y ago
        Yes but there are cases where the accused may not even be a citizen. Also Switzerland still has a provision with other countries for allowing Swiss citizens to be tried in Switzerland for crimes committed abroad.
- Vinnl 2y ago
  I'm assuming that nothing in Switzerland is protected by the fifth amendment.
  - jkaplowitz 2y ago
    You are correct. The fifth amendment to the current Swiss federal constitution prohibits the construction of minarets, rather than protecting anything.
    - Vinnl 2y ago
      I was this close to looking up myself to see if Switzerland had any fifth amendments. Happy to see someone took it upon themselves.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  …there are some technical tricks to retrieve RAM values after power loss Do these tricks still work? Did they ever work or is it more internet rumor? Modern RAM refreshes itself really quickly and I suspect signal degradation happens more quickly than historical modules. If you are worried about the gestapo seizing your servers and freezing the RAM, is there any mitigation in place?
  - cyberpunk 2y ago
    I think it’s pretty much infeasible. Some professor did it in a lab once but I can’t see that level of sophistication being used against a public vpn server, whatever the circumstances. SGX encrypted memory would work as a solution for this, probably.
    - reginald78 2y ago
      It's been awhile since I read about this, but I remember the discharge time of the tested ram was so slow it seemed like anyone reasonably quick and prepared could potentially pull it off, even without freezing. But it was with SDR or DDR and modern ram discharge is so much quicker it is basically impossible now.
  - GTP 2y ago
    If they are determined, they can still seize the machines without powering them down. It has already been done in the past.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
      I was imagining more the scenario that gman appears and you hastily flip the switch. I have so little trust in computer security I assume the powers that be have a USB stick with 0 days that can compromise any modern OS by just plugging into an active machine.
ssl232 2y ago
They say in the article the encryption passwords are stored off site, presumably in Switzerland where their HQ is. Switzerland does not have any law compelling handing over passwords as far as I am aware. They also say the logs on the (encrypted) drives don't contain any useful information linking back to users anyway.
- pveierland 2y ago
  Which still results in a clearly weaker defense compared to not persisting data, as the data will remain available to be acquired legally or illegally even after powering the system down.
  - GTP 2y ago
    But a motivated nation state can size servers without powering them down, it has been done in the past. Sure, it's harder than just smashing the door and grabbing them, but still possible. In the end, when discussing security one has always to start by clearly defining the intended threat model.
- lozf 2y ago
  As I recall they said similar things about their encrypted email service, giving the impression that there was nothing to share with Authorities. Then they gave up enough personal information to lead to the arrest of a French activist.
  - cyberpunk 2y ago
    Poor opsec there to be honest; I think they handed over the recovery email address he provided when he registered which was some gmail or something address which easily gave away his identity. As far as I know they were not able to access any of the mail in his account.
    - lozf 2y ago
      Fair point, thanks.
ranger_danger 2y ago
Also, having the disks in the first place means they (whoever seizes them physically) have an infinite amount of time to try to crack it. The data is still there, so I don't consider this "no less secure".

malfist 2y ago

Absolutely, and while there are some technical tricks to retrieve RAM values after power loss, it's a hell of a lot easier to demand a decryption key. Remember, the courts consider decryption keys just like house keys, they can be demanded by the police and are not protected by the fifth amendment

ssl232 2y ago
> they can be demanded by the police and are not protected by the fifth amendment *Within the USA.
jkaplowitz 2y ago
> Remember, the courts consider decryption keys just like house keys, they can be demanded by the police and are not protected by the fifth amendment Proton VPN is based in Switzerland where the fifth amendment doesn’t apply anyway as a US-specific constitutional concept. They might have stronger or weaker protections in this area, I don’t know, but not the fifth amendment.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Daviey 2y ago
Is Proton subject to fifth amendment regardless?
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  Not the US fifth amendment, no. (Edit: it does apply in cases where they are dealing within the US with officials at any level of US government, or when making statements to US officials who are conducting a custodial interrogation abroad.) They are based in a country with more than five amendments to its current federal constitution, but since they are unlikely to want to construct a minaret, the prohibition on doing so in the current Swiss federal constitution’s fifth amendment doesn’t affect them in any meaningful way.
  - re-thc 2y ago
    > Not the US fifth amendment, no. They are based in a country... Do we really assume not being in the US directly fixes everything? When... - Most social media used is US-based - Phone markets like Android and iOS are US-based - Browser stores like Chrome are US-based - They have US-based servers - They have US-based customers - They have customers specifically wanting to access US-based content The list goes on... And they even have a .com domain, which is US-based.
    - jkaplowitz 2y ago
      > Do we really assume not being in the US directly fixes everything? Nobody said anything about fixing everything. When the US fifth amendment doesn’t apply, people have fewer protections from the US government, not more. Also, I should correct myself slightly on when the US fifth amendment applies: in the rare case where US officials do conduct a custodial interrogation abroad, US courts will recognize the US fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination for statements made to those US officials in that context, even for statements made by foreign nationals. But US courts will not recognize those rights for statements made to foreign officials, outside of two rarely applicable exceptions. Also, of course, dealings within the US with US government officials are constitutionally protected for all nationalities. I’ve edited my comment upthread accordingly. With respect to Proton’s home government of Switzerland, they might have more protections or fewer protections than the US fifth amendment offers versus the US government when it does apply - I have no idea and avoided making any assertion either way about that.
  - 2y ago
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  If they are accused by the US of a crime, they could be extradited there because Switzerland has a treaty for that.
  - Daviey 2y ago
    Good luck with that, Article 7 of the Swiss Federal Act on International Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters states that Swiss citizens may not be extradited to a foreign country without their written consent. This protection of citizens from extradition is a longstanding tradition in Swiss law.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      Yes but there are cases where the accused may not even be a citizen. Also Switzerland still has a provision with other countries for allowing Swiss citizens to be tried in Switzerland for crimes committed abroad.
Vinnl 2y ago
I'm assuming that nothing in Switzerland is protected by the fifth amendment.
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  You are correct. The fifth amendment to the current Swiss federal constitution prohibits the construction of minarets, rather than protecting anything.
  - Vinnl 2y ago
    I was this close to looking up myself to see if Switzerland had any fifth amendments. Happy to see someone took it upon themselves.
0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
…there are some technical tricks to retrieve RAM values after power loss Do these tricks still work? Did they ever work or is it more internet rumor? Modern RAM refreshes itself really quickly and I suspect signal degradation happens more quickly than historical modules. If you are worried about the gestapo seizing your servers and freezing the RAM, is there any mitigation in place?
- cyberpunk 2y ago
  I think it’s pretty much infeasible. Some professor did it in a lab once but I can’t see that level of sophistication being used against a public vpn server, whatever the circumstances. SGX encrypted memory would work as a solution for this, probably.
  - reginald78 2y ago
    It's been awhile since I read about this, but I remember the discharge time of the tested ram was so slow it seemed like anyone reasonably quick and prepared could potentially pull it off, even without freezing. But it was with SDR or DDR and modern ram discharge is so much quicker it is basically impossible now.
- GTP 2y ago
  If they are determined, they can still seize the machines without powering them down. It has already been done in the past.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    I was imagining more the scenario that gman appears and you hastily flip the switch. I have so little trust in computer security I assume the powers that be have a USB stick with 0 days that can compromise any modern OS by just plugging into an active machine.

ssl232 2y ago

They say in the article the encryption passwords are stored off site, presumably in Switzerland where their HQ is. Switzerland does not have any law compelling handing over passwords as far as I am aware. They also say the logs on the (encrypted) drives don't contain any useful information linking back to users anyway.

pveierland 2y ago
Which still results in a clearly weaker defense compared to not persisting data, as the data will remain available to be acquired legally or illegally even after powering the system down.
- GTP 2y ago
  But a motivated nation state can size servers without powering them down, it has been done in the past. Sure, it's harder than just smashing the door and grabbing them, but still possible. In the end, when discussing security one has always to start by clearly defining the intended threat model.
lozf 2y ago
As I recall they said similar things about their encrypted email service, giving the impression that there was nothing to share with Authorities. Then they gave up enough personal information to lead to the arrest of a French activist.
- cyberpunk 2y ago
  Poor opsec there to be honest; I think they handed over the recovery email address he provided when he registered which was some gmail or something address which easily gave away his identity. As far as I know they were not able to access any of the mail in his account.
  - lozf 2y ago
    Fair point, thanks.

ranger_danger 2y ago

Also, having the disks in the first place means they (whoever seizes them physically) have an infinite amount of time to try to crack it. The data is still there, so I don't consider this "no less secure".