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> the warmonger on the global stage, Russia Disagree. There are several warmongers on the global stage, Russia is just one of them. Appeasement is a word point

> the warmonger on the global stage, Russia Disagree. There are several warmongers on the global stage, Russia is just one of them. Appeasement is a word pointlessly thrown around by people who don't uderstand history. > There is plenty circumstantial evidence Russia was behind this I have no intention of starting world war III on the basis of circumstantial evidence. If we operated like this then half of Europe should be hostile to Ukraine over circumstantial evidence that they destroyed north stream 2. > but when they do say Russia, what do you think an appropriate answer would be? There's only one answer that doesn't end in an escalation and stops all hostile acts from all parts at once. Find a compromise for peace. Stop the posturing and find a damn compromise. I have a feeling this war is mostly going on because both sides have gone too far with their statements and it would be a political suicide to backtrack on what was said.

sofixa 2y ago
> Appeasement is a word pointlessly thrown around by people who don't uderstand history. I would say appeasement is the approach taken by people who don't understand history. Putin has been appeased for decades (Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine 2014 and 2022). How did that work out? It didn't, he just kept escalating. > Find a compromise for peace. Stop the posturing and find a damn compromise. How do you find a compromise with a robber and rapist? If someone comes to your home, rapes you, and says your home has always been theirs and you're fake, what sort of compromise would you find with them? And for the record yes, Russian troops are looting, raping, and enacting a genocide (if nothing else they've proudly said they've kidnapped hundreds of thousands of kids for reeducation which is in the literal definition of genocide).
- ossobuco 2y ago
  > If someone comes to your home, rapes you, and says your home Oh no, not yet another completely pointless "raped in your home" analogy. A nation is not a home and its citizens are not family, otherwise we'd manage countries much differently. > Russian troops are looting, raping, and enacting a genocide There's no genocide ongoing in Ukraine. No international authority has declared or recognized what's going on as genocide. Looting and raping is what happens in any war. The Americans know it very well. The question is: if you consider what's going on in Ukraine a genocide, with 10k civilians killed over 2 years and a half of war, how do we define what's going on in Israel/Palestine, with 40k civilians killed over 10 months of war? What about the ~200k civilian killed during USA's unjustified invasion of Iraq? How come we ended up appeasing the warmongers in that situation? So you see, if it's not worth causing a WWIII for Palestine, or for Iraq, then it's objectively not worth it for Ukraine. These are the rules, and it wasn't Russia who set them. And before you accuse me of "whataboutism": I'm not raising different issues to derail the conversation, I'm bringing in some much needed context to explain my reasoning.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    > There's no genocide ongoing in Ukraine. No international authority has declared or recognized what's going on as genocide. Putin is literally an international fugitive wanted by the ICC for genocide. > Looting and raping is what happens in any war. The Americans know it very well. Scale makes a fundamental difference. Nothing comparable to 1-2 million raped German, Polish and other civilians in Prussia during the final months of the WWII took place on the western front. In Ukraine too, Russians continue to use sexual violence against civilians and prisoners of war in a systemic and institutionalized manner and on a massive scale. Trying to wave it away with "happens in any war" is disingenuous.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      > Putin is literally an international fugitive wanted by the ICC for genocide. No, the charges are "unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation", and we're talking about "at least hundreds of children". This has nothing to do with genocide and you shouldn't really throw the word around lightly. > Scale makes a fundamental difference. Nothing comparable to 1-2 million raped German, Polish and other civilians in Prussia during the final months of the WWII Now, that is some good old whataboutism. The URSS doesn't even exist anymore.
      - mopsi 2y ago
        > No, the charges are "unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation", and we're talking about "at least hundreds of children". This has nothing to do with genocide and you shouldn't really throw the word around lightly. Abduction of children is a form of genocide and stipulated as such in international treaties. As with many other crimes, the full extent remains unknown due to lack of access to occupied territories, but the number of victims is in at least tens of thousands, possibly in hundreds of thousands. > Now, that is some good old whataboutism. The URSS doesn't even exist anymore. ... refutes nothing I said.
        2y ago

sofixa 2y ago

> Appeasement is a word pointlessly thrown around by people who don't uderstand history. I would say appeasement is the approach taken by people who don't understand history. Putin has been appeased for decades (Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine 2014 and 2022). How did that work out? It didn't, he just kept escalating. > Find a compromise for peace. Stop the posturing and find a damn compromise. How do you find a compromise with a robber and rapist? If someone comes to your home, rapes you, and says your home has always been theirs and you're fake, what sort of compromise would you find with them? And for the record yes, Russian troops are looting, raping, and enacting a genocide (if nothing else they've proudly said they've kidnapped hundreds of thousands of kids for reeducation which is in the literal definition of genocide).

ossobuco 2y ago
> If someone comes to your home, rapes you, and says your home Oh no, not yet another completely pointless "raped in your home" analogy. A nation is not a home and its citizens are not family, otherwise we'd manage countries much differently. > Russian troops are looting, raping, and enacting a genocide There's no genocide ongoing in Ukraine. No international authority has declared or recognized what's going on as genocide. Looting and raping is what happens in any war. The Americans know it very well. The question is: if you consider what's going on in Ukraine a genocide, with 10k civilians killed over 2 years and a half of war, how do we define what's going on in Israel/Palestine, with 40k civilians killed over 10 months of war? What about the ~200k civilian killed during USA's unjustified invasion of Iraq? How come we ended up appeasing the warmongers in that situation? So you see, if it's not worth causing a WWIII for Palestine, or for Iraq, then it's objectively not worth it for Ukraine. These are the rules, and it wasn't Russia who set them. And before you accuse me of "whataboutism": I'm not raising different issues to derail the conversation, I'm bringing in some much needed context to explain my reasoning.
- mopsi 2y ago
  > There's no genocide ongoing in Ukraine. No international authority has declared or recognized what's going on as genocide. Putin is literally an international fugitive wanted by the ICC for genocide. > Looting and raping is what happens in any war. The Americans know it very well. Scale makes a fundamental difference. Nothing comparable to 1-2 million raped German, Polish and other civilians in Prussia during the final months of the WWII took place on the western front. In Ukraine too, Russians continue to use sexual violence against civilians and prisoners of war in a systemic and institutionalized manner and on a massive scale. Trying to wave it away with "happens in any war" is disingenuous.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    > Putin is literally an international fugitive wanted by the ICC for genocide. No, the charges are "unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation", and we're talking about "at least hundreds of children". This has nothing to do with genocide and you shouldn't really throw the word around lightly. > Scale makes a fundamental difference. Nothing comparable to 1-2 million raped German, Polish and other civilians in Prussia during the final months of the WWII Now, that is some good old whataboutism. The URSS doesn't even exist anymore.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      > No, the charges are "unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation", and we're talking about "at least hundreds of children". This has nothing to do with genocide and you shouldn't really throw the word around lightly. Abduction of children is a form of genocide and stipulated as such in international treaties. As with many other crimes, the full extent remains unknown due to lack of access to occupied territories, but the number of victims is in at least tens of thousands, possibly in hundreds of thousands. > Now, that is some good old whataboutism. The URSS doesn't even exist anymore. ... refutes nothing I said.
      - 2y ago