5 ms·

For those on HN expecting "hackers" related news, this is not a cyberattack, but physical attacks on the train infrastructure.

sofixa 2y ago
To be fair the Ministry of Interior has warned that cyberattacks are expected too. This could be only the opening salvo of sabotages.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  I sincerely hope that they don't go radical because we don't need more tensions. Make your message heard, be a bit cocky but don't start a "fire".
  - jylam 2y ago
    Not being radical enough is exactly what put us in this situation. So yes, we should be more radical, and show them who they are working for.
    - agumonkey 2y ago
      I beg to differ, there are other paths on the way IMO.
      - polotics 2y ago
        Pray tell what other paths do you think there are? Fold and let Europe be enslaved by a certain nuke-equipped Mafia? This is very clearly what we're looking at with this new attack here, and without consistent x10 responses the thugs will keep at it and gnaw more and more. The other paths is send all the diplomats back, neuter the sleepers, repay the attacks in kind.
        agumonkey 2y ago
        Well I assumed the sabotage was linked to climate change, not geopolitical issues nor a foreign attack.
        gat1 2y ago
        Most of the time, climate change activists support trains and therefore would probably not disrupt the network, especially in France.
        agumonkey 2y ago
        Somehow I thought it was a way to protest against mass tourism, in this case due to Olympic Games... So now I'm concerned, do we know who did it and why ?
        AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41077894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41077894 cites a source claiming Russian sabotage. And I recall hearing a month ago or more that Russia would likely try something, because they aren't allowed in the Olympics as Russia, because of the invasion of Ukraine. So they want to mar the Olympics out of saving face, or spite, or revenge, or whatever. (Sorry, I cannot cite a source...)
        yawboakye 2y ago
        the incredible damage that western media has done to their citizens is this outsized sense of superiority. russia isn’t la côte d’iviore. you can try a 10x response but i doubt you’ll be here to tell us how it went.
        polotics 2y ago
        Interesting statement. What is the nature of the superiority that you think you're seeing exactly? Witnessing a Russian youth kicking a downed man in the head was quite revelatory: indeed no one from Côte d'Ivoire would be that much of a savage beast.
    - slowmovintarget 2y ago
      Pragmatic treatment of the enemy, not radical handling of citizenry is the way. Radicalism in foreign policy leads straight to open war.
      - mschuster91 2y ago
        So what, we don't have to send ICBMs on their happy way to Moscow to turn the Kremlin into fine dust. We can just go and supply Ukraine with a shit ton of Abrams, Taurus or lift the usage restrictions that currently forbid Ukraine to strike targets deep in Moscow. All of that is certainly better than just accepting Putin's escalations.
        mistermann 2y ago
        > So what So you are prescribing dangerous policy on guessing.
        mschuster91 2y ago
        There's no need to guess when Russian war drones crash on Romanian soil. This kind of sovereignty violations alone would be enough for anyone to start a war, our politicians however don't have the balls to do anything about it. And besides: that's the cost of doing "plausible deniability" missions like Russia has done for over a decade now - remember the first invasion of Ukraine in 2014 and "they're totally not Russian soldiers" or the time they shot down a passenger plane? Fuck around, find out, it's time to have some good old-fashioned revenge for all the bullshit Russia has pulled and gotten away with until now.
        mistermann 2y ago
        > There's no need to guess when Russian war drones crash on Romanian soil. This kind of sovereignty violations alone would be enough for anyone to start a war, our politicians however don't have the balls to do anything about it. Does that guarantee this is safe to do? >> We can just go and supply Ukraine with a shit ton of Abrams, Taurus or lift the usage restrictions that currently forbid Ukraine to strike targets deep in Moscow.
- chgs 2y ago
  The Korea Winter Olympics in 2018 was hit by a cyberattack during the opening ceremony, I’m eager to find out what happens this time
GistNoesis 2y ago
Alternatively, you can view it as a OSI layer 1 attack. A bunch of optic fibers have been cut, but the network was badly designed without redundancy (as evidenced by the current denial of service). Strategic points (the attacks occurred at junctions of several axis) were left insufficiently guarded. The location of these points also shouldn't have been made available to bad actors. French people are not surprised because there are always problems with train when lots of people need them to go on holidays. Usually at this time of the year it's getting hot, and it's one or more electrical transformer that gets burned by high heats. When copper price get high, cables are usually stolen to be sold as metal. And there are also strikes. There is an economic balance to be found between the cost of securing and maintaining the infrastructure vs fixing the problems once they occur. Probably can be better, but others probably have it much worse.
- thrance 2y ago
  You can't really guard thousands of kilometers of rails, or have much redundancy considering the cost of the infrastructure. The incesseant budget cuts and progressive privatization certainly do not help.
  - throwaway5752 2y ago
    If you begin to threat model the physical security necessary, you quickly see how asymmetrical it is, regardless of the money thrown at it. @liotier, I've been rate-limited and cannot reply to you directly, so I'm editing my response into this comment. My apologies. I didn't intend any slight to French infrastructure or those designing and securing it, just the dynamics of the problem. It is easier to attack than to defend, particularly in physical security. I'm sure critical infrastructure is well taken care of. Do you know if TGV is considered as critical as the other sites you noted? I'm curious of your opinion about what level of expertise and intelligence collection it required to carry this out.
    - liotier 2y ago
      Network redundancy (sometimes up to quadruple for some of the French electrical infrastructure) is indeed vulnerable to asymmetrical attack, if the attacker knows what secures what. I can throw burning fuel into a manhole or at a street cabinet, and it doesn't take much insight to find one that carries important traffic - take your pick near a military base or a nuclear power plant. But the attack will be ineffective, because the attacker needs to know what other bits of infrastructure carry the backup circuits - and take them out simultaneously. And, of course, for the important stuff such information is classified. So, an effective attack on French critical infrastructure is more difficult than it seems at first glance.

sofixa 2y ago

To be fair the Ministry of Interior has warned that cyberattacks are expected too. This could be only the opening salvo of sabotages.

agumonkey 2y ago
I sincerely hope that they don't go radical because we don't need more tensions. Make your message heard, be a bit cocky but don't start a "fire".
- jylam 2y ago
  Not being radical enough is exactly what put us in this situation. So yes, we should be more radical, and show them who they are working for.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    I beg to differ, there are other paths on the way IMO.
    - polotics 2y ago
      Pray tell what other paths do you think there are? Fold and let Europe be enslaved by a certain nuke-equipped Mafia? This is very clearly what we're looking at with this new attack here, and without consistent x10 responses the thugs will keep at it and gnaw more and more. The other paths is send all the diplomats back, neuter the sleepers, repay the attacks in kind.
      - agumonkey 2y ago
        Well I assumed the sabotage was linked to climate change, not geopolitical issues nor a foreign attack.
        gat1 2y ago
        Most of the time, climate change activists support trains and therefore would probably not disrupt the network, especially in France.
        agumonkey 2y ago
        Somehow I thought it was a way to protest against mass tourism, in this case due to Olympic Games... So now I'm concerned, do we know who did it and why ?
        AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41077894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41077894 cites a source claiming Russian sabotage. And I recall hearing a month ago or more that Russia would likely try something, because they aren't allowed in the Olympics as Russia, because of the invasion of Ukraine. So they want to mar the Olympics out of saving face, or spite, or revenge, or whatever. (Sorry, I cannot cite a source...)
      - yawboakye 2y ago
        the incredible damage that western media has done to their citizens is this outsized sense of superiority. russia isn’t la côte d’iviore. you can try a 10x response but i doubt you’ll be here to tell us how it went.
        polotics 2y ago
        Interesting statement. What is the nature of the superiority that you think you're seeing exactly? Witnessing a Russian youth kicking a downed man in the head was quite revelatory: indeed no one from Côte d'Ivoire would be that much of a savage beast.
  - slowmovintarget 2y ago
    Pragmatic treatment of the enemy, not radical handling of citizenry is the way. Radicalism in foreign policy leads straight to open war.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      So what, we don't have to send ICBMs on their happy way to Moscow to turn the Kremlin into fine dust. We can just go and supply Ukraine with a shit ton of Abrams, Taurus or lift the usage restrictions that currently forbid Ukraine to strike targets deep in Moscow. All of that is certainly better than just accepting Putin's escalations.
      - mistermann 2y ago
        > So what So you are prescribing dangerous policy on guessing.
        mschuster91 2y ago
        There's no need to guess when Russian war drones crash on Romanian soil. This kind of sovereignty violations alone would be enough for anyone to start a war, our politicians however don't have the balls to do anything about it. And besides: that's the cost of doing "plausible deniability" missions like Russia has done for over a decade now - remember the first invasion of Ukraine in 2014 and "they're totally not Russian soldiers" or the time they shot down a passenger plane? Fuck around, find out, it's time to have some good old-fashioned revenge for all the bullshit Russia has pulled and gotten away with until now.
        mistermann 2y ago
        > There's no need to guess when Russian war drones crash on Romanian soil. This kind of sovereignty violations alone would be enough for anyone to start a war, our politicians however don't have the balls to do anything about it. Does that guarantee this is safe to do? >> We can just go and supply Ukraine with a shit ton of Abrams, Taurus or lift the usage restrictions that currently forbid Ukraine to strike targets deep in Moscow.
chgs 2y ago
The Korea Winter Olympics in 2018 was hit by a cyberattack during the opening ceremony, I’m eager to find out what happens this time

GistNoesis 2y ago

Alternatively, you can view it as a OSI layer 1 attack. A bunch of optic fibers have been cut, but the network was badly designed without redundancy (as evidenced by the current denial of service). Strategic points (the attacks occurred at junctions of several axis) were left insufficiently guarded. The location of these points also shouldn't have been made available to bad actors. French people are not surprised because there are always problems with train when lots of people need them to go on holidays. Usually at this time of the year it's getting hot, and it's one or more electrical transformer that gets burned by high heats. When copper price get high, cables are usually stolen to be sold as metal. And there are also strikes. There is an economic balance to be found between the cost of securing and maintaining the infrastructure vs fixing the problems once they occur. Probably can be better, but others probably have it much worse.

thrance 2y ago
You can't really guard thousands of kilometers of rails, or have much redundancy considering the cost of the infrastructure. The incesseant budget cuts and progressive privatization certainly do not help.
- throwaway5752 2y ago
  If you begin to threat model the physical security necessary, you quickly see how asymmetrical it is, regardless of the money thrown at it. @liotier, I've been rate-limited and cannot reply to you directly, so I'm editing my response into this comment. My apologies. I didn't intend any slight to French infrastructure or those designing and securing it, just the dynamics of the problem. It is easier to attack than to defend, particularly in physical security. I'm sure critical infrastructure is well taken care of. Do you know if TGV is considered as critical as the other sites you noted? I'm curious of your opinion about what level of expertise and intelligence collection it required to carry this out.
  - liotier 2y ago
    Network redundancy (sometimes up to quadruple for some of the French electrical infrastructure) is indeed vulnerable to asymmetrical attack, if the attacker knows what secures what. I can throw burning fuel into a manhole or at a street cabinet, and it doesn't take much insight to find one that carries important traffic - take your pick near a military base or a nuclear power plant. But the attack will be ineffective, because the attacker needs to know what other bits of infrastructure carry the backup circuits - and take them out simultaneously. And, of course, for the important stuff such information is classified. So, an effective attack on French critical infrastructure is more difficult than it seems at first glance.