4 ms·

"the root cause is widespread poverty and income and wealth inequality, nothing else" That sounds like article of faith. The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn

"the root cause is widespread poverty and income and wealth inequality, nothing else" That sounds like article of faith. The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society? What about other poorer European countries? In a cross-border comparison, there is no obvious strong correlation between the parameters you mention and violent crime, how could there be a causal relationship then? And if we limit ourselves to the US, what about crime development in time? It certainly didn't rise and fall in lockstep with poverty, income and wealth inequality, not even in the last decades.

mschuster91 2y ago
> The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society? It got way worse during the Thatcher years and especially following them, with the formerly mighty heavy industry all but collapsing, and the Brexiteers made heavy bank on that. The aftershock of first Covid and then Ukraine with the gas price and general inflation was yet another heavy blow.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  I live in a Czech city where the formerly mighty heavy industry collapsed spectacularly, after decades of being propped up by the previous regime for ideological reasons. Knifings are still pretty rare here. I have met and lived with plenty of poor people and mere material precariousness won't remake one into a callous psychopath who behaves like a violent predator. Drugs will, though. Frying the brain, as they say.
mattgperry 2y ago
The UK has been described as an Eastern European economy with London bolted on. Poverty is very obviously increasing there, for anyone familiar with the country.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Come visit us in Eastern Europe and see for yourself that a lower income doesn't equal to "people behaving like wolves". My grandpa grew up without electricity in his home, seven people in a single wooden hut. He was always a kind old man, even though a bit of a drunkard.
  - imdsm 2y ago
    I don't think we can isolate any one variable. Poverty does tend to correlate to crime, but poverty never exists in a vacuum. Population density probably has a greater bearing on crime, and poverty and population tend to go hand in hand in metropolitan areas. If you have an area that is poor but has few people, there'll probably be less crime, as less people means it's easier to track each person socially, and thus there's more accountability. I'm sure there are studies that show optimal 'tribe' sizes, and I know from experience how different orgs can be from small teams to large teams, so it stands to reason that the key driver is probably population density. we have to differentiate between 'low level' crime and 'high level' crime, e.g. fraud, financial crime, all of those super-rich organised crime
pydry 2y ago
>That sounds like article of faith. The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society? From WW1 until about 1975, no it was getting less stratified. The upper classes famously had to relinquish their country houses because they couldn't afford to maintain them and the middle classes grew. It wasn't until neoliberalism took a foothold under Thatcher that social stratification started to grow again.

mschuster91 2y ago

> The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society? It got way worse during the Thatcher years and especially following them, with the formerly mighty heavy industry all but collapsing, and the Brexiteers made heavy bank on that. The aftershock of first Covid and then Ukraine with the gas price and general inflation was yet another heavy blow.

inglor_cz 2y ago
I live in a Czech city where the formerly mighty heavy industry collapsed spectacularly, after decades of being propped up by the previous regime for ideological reasons. Knifings are still pretty rare here. I have met and lived with plenty of poor people and mere material precariousness won't remake one into a callous psychopath who behaves like a violent predator. Drugs will, though. Frying the brain, as they say.

mattgperry 2y ago

The UK has been described as an Eastern European economy with London bolted on. Poverty is very obviously increasing there, for anyone familiar with the country.

inglor_cz 2y ago
Come visit us in Eastern Europe and see for yourself that a lower income doesn't equal to "people behaving like wolves". My grandpa grew up without electricity in his home, seven people in a single wooden hut. He was always a kind old man, even though a bit of a drunkard.
- imdsm 2y ago
  I don't think we can isolate any one variable. Poverty does tend to correlate to crime, but poverty never exists in a vacuum. Population density probably has a greater bearing on crime, and poverty and population tend to go hand in hand in metropolitan areas. If you have an area that is poor but has few people, there'll probably be less crime, as less people means it's easier to track each person socially, and thus there's more accountability. I'm sure there are studies that show optimal 'tribe' sizes, and I know from experience how different orgs can be from small teams to large teams, so it stands to reason that the key driver is probably population density. we have to differentiate between 'low level' crime and 'high level' crime, e.g. fraud, financial crime, all of those super-rich organised crime

pydry 2y ago

>That sounds like article of faith. The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society? From WW1 until about 1975, no it was getting less stratified. The upper classes famously had to relinquish their country houses because they couldn't afford to maintain them and the middle classes grew. It wasn't until neoliberalism took a foothold under Thatcher that social stratification started to grow again.