4 ms·

I'd love if all psychoactive compounds could be removed from coffee beans. The stress response and inability to sleep I get from decaf beans is pretty much comp

I'd love if all psychoactive compounds could be removed from coffee beans. The stress response and inability to sleep I get from decaf beans is pretty much comparable to that from normal beans (and distinctly different from pure caffeine or green tea)

eric-hu 2y ago
Have you looked into L-Theanine? It’s an extract from green tea. I add it to my coffee sometimes and it smooths out the experience
ricardobayes 2y ago
Do you put sugar in your (decaf) coffee? A lot of energy comes from sugar.
Teslazar 2y ago
I had a similar problem. Coffee, decaf, even dark chocolate would be very stimulating and would mess with my sleep, even a single cup in the morning. I tried quite a few things to solve this and ended up discovering that supplementing with molybdenum solved it. Molybdenum is an essential element important in the metabolization of some compounds, including caffeine. It's cheap and may be worth trying. Also, I found that L-Theanine helped but only for maybe a week or so before it became less and less effective. For me, it was obviously a band-aid solution that wasn't correcting the underlying problem.
- hcrisp 2y ago
  I couldn't find any citations that mention molybdenum as a way to increase metabolism of caffeine. However, I found one reference [0] that mentions, "Consumption of broccoli and brassica vegetables in general and absorption of large quantities of vitamin C increase caffeine clearance". EDIT: It would seem that the vitamin C paper [1] concludes the opposite of what [0] states. "These results indicate that the elimination of caffeine in the elderly is not affected significantly by the concentrations of vitamin C achieved during this study." [0] https://www.coffeeandscience.org/health/coffee-and-caffeine/caffeine-and-metabolism [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7064899/
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    A limited number of studies suggested tobacco smoking increases the metabolism of caffeine, an effect possibly mediated by caffeine. "Caffeine metabolism is increased by smoking, an effect mediated by an acceleration in its demethylation (it also increases xanthine oxidase activity) (Parsons and Neims, 1978). Smoking cessation returns caffeine clearance rates to nonsmoking values (Murphy et al., 1988)." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223808/#:~:text=Caffeine%20metabolism%20is%20increased%20by%20smoking%2C%20an%20effect,rates%20to%20nonsmoking%20values%20%28Murphy%20et%20al.%2C%201988%29 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223808/#:~:text=Caffei....
- Teslazar 2y ago
  I'll add some more info to my post. Caffeine is a purine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine). A Google Scholar search for "molybdenum purine" will come up with many studies discussing how molybdenum is involved in purine catabolism. For example, the following article states "[molybdenum] is considered essential because it is part of a complex called molybdenum cofactor that is required for the three mammalian enzymes xanthine oxidase (XO), aldehyde oxidase (AO), and sulfite oxidase (SO). XO participates in the metabolism of purines". (https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0115426593008006277 https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.117...). When I was younger I was able to drink multiple pots of coffee in a day and even drink coffee right before going to sleep without any obvious issues. So when I couldn't even drink a single cup of coffee in the morning on a regular basis without problems I had reason to believe there was something wrong with me and it wasn't simply a genetic quirk.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    I find discussion about caffeine sensitivity in humans rather fascinating given the very broad range of the amount required to induce an effect. If those above are to be believed (or not suffering a psychosomatic response) and are still affected by decaffeinated coffee then the dosage between different individuals for given psychotropic effects to occur could be as high as 100:1. As someone who can drink copious nubmers of cups of coffee in a single sitting and notice very little effect I'm curious to know why this range is so wide (heaven help patients, doctors and pharmaceutical manufacturers if all drugs had such a wide range). Whenever I raise this the common retort is that I've developed a tolerance to caffeine, and no doubt that's true to some extent. But from experience it's pretty limited, I've been in situations where I've not had caffeinated drinks for months and not noticed any difference when I returned to them. Also, decades ago when I was a student I took up coffee to help stay awake whilst studying and it was pretty inefective. I tried evey strong brew availabe including up to five heaped teaspoons of Moccona instant coffee per cup and it was like water off a duck's back—almost useless/inefective. The question is why do some people have a supersensitive response to caffeine whilst others do not.
    - 2y ago
- herbst 2y ago
  Stopped here to say L-Theanine as well. It's part of my morning routine for years now and without it coffee turns literal poison for my nerves.
- pillefitz 2y ago
  Very interesting suggestion, will look into it. L-theanine has long been a staple of mine to counteract the effects of coffee. Typically have to redose at 4am, as the cortisol spike keeps me awake otherwise (that is, from a small coffee 26hrs ago..) These days I'm limiting my intake to once a month or so
Toutouxc 2y ago
Interesting, either the store is selling you fake decaf, or there's really a whole bunch of other chemicals, other than caffeine, that can mess with your body. I have an unusually strong response to caffeine (a cup of coffee, strong tea, or, on a bad day, even a small glass of Coke). It doesn't really affect my heart (as far as my Apple Watch can tell), but it obliterates my sleep and makes me feel quite a bit more anxious than usual. Decaf coffee solves the problem completely — no stimulation, no anxiety, normal sleep. Coincidentally, I had a tall glass of iced decaf just two hours ago, and I'm going to bed in a few minutes.
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  Everybody is different. I'm sensitive enough to caffeine that trace amounts causes anxiety. I have to avoid chocolate. I'm equally sensitive to alcohol. Because it's immediately absorbed into the blood, a sip of scotch will take out my antidepressant in seconds. It's shocking how quickly and how severely even a small amount of alcohol affects me. It's almost like an allergy.
- deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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laweijfmvo 2y ago
it might be easier to just artificially recreate "natural coffee flavor" than to try to remove everything
- pillefitz 2y ago
  That's exactly what I'm doing by drinking barley coffee. With some milk and sugar it's getting close to coffee (minus all the aromatic flavor)
tptacek 2y ago
I quit caffeine a decade ago and am an evangelist for doing so; garbage drug. I'm very sensitive to it, and it absolutely wrecks my sleep. But I drink like five cups of black decaf every morning, which probably works out to 10-20% of the caffeine in a normal cup, and am pretty much fine. There's enough caffeine in decaf that I'd be afraid to drink it after 2PM.
- cryptonector 2y ago
  I had to greatly reduce my caffeine intake at one point, and I've kept it down since. I'm inclined to agree that it's a garbage drug, but in small amounts and strictly in the morning work -like you do- it seems to work for me. Rather than drink 5 cups of decaf I drink one cup of decaf made with 6 parts decaf beans to 1 part caf. Then maybe later in the day I might eat three tiny pieces of 100% chocolate mass, but like you I'm afraid to after 2PM-ish.
  - jerkstate 2y ago
    I’m a big advocate for replacing coffee with cacao. I drink it in the morning instead of coffee. Made from raw cacao paste and hot water, I use an immersion blender to mix it well and then add half and half for flavor. Way more nutrients than coffee and the theobromine is much gentler than caffeine and lasts all day.
    - cryptonector 2y ago
      Huh! Gonna have to try that!
      - daydream 2y ago
        Watch out for the lead and heavy metals and cacao https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-safety/a-third-of-chocolate-products-are-high-in-heavy-metals-a4844566398/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-safety/a-third-o...
        2y ago
diob 2y ago
It's mostly genetics. Some folks should never have any amount of caffeine, while others it hardly affects. I have the hardly affects gene.

eric-hu 2y ago

Have you looked into L-Theanine? It’s an extract from green tea. I add it to my coffee sometimes and it smooths out the experience

ricardobayes 2y ago

Do you put sugar in your (decaf) coffee? A lot of energy comes from sugar.

Teslazar 2y ago

I had a similar problem. Coffee, decaf, even dark chocolate would be very stimulating and would mess with my sleep, even a single cup in the morning. I tried quite a few things to solve this and ended up discovering that supplementing with molybdenum solved it. Molybdenum is an essential element important in the metabolization of some compounds, including caffeine. It's cheap and may be worth trying. Also, I found that L-Theanine helped but only for maybe a week or so before it became less and less effective. For me, it was obviously a band-aid solution that wasn't correcting the underlying problem.

hcrisp 2y ago
I couldn't find any citations that mention molybdenum as a way to increase metabolism of caffeine. However, I found one reference [0] that mentions, "Consumption of broccoli and brassica vegetables in general and absorption of large quantities of vitamin C increase caffeine clearance". EDIT: It would seem that the vitamin C paper [1] concludes the opposite of what [0] states. "These results indicate that the elimination of caffeine in the elderly is not affected significantly by the concentrations of vitamin C achieved during this study." [0] https://www.coffeeandscience.org/health/coffee-and-caffeine/caffeine-and-metabolism [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7064899/
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  A limited number of studies suggested tobacco smoking increases the metabolism of caffeine, an effect possibly mediated by caffeine. "Caffeine metabolism is increased by smoking, an effect mediated by an acceleration in its demethylation (it also increases xanthine oxidase activity) (Parsons and Neims, 1978). Smoking cessation returns caffeine clearance rates to nonsmoking values (Murphy et al., 1988)." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223808/#:~:text=Caffeine%20metabolism%20is%20increased%20by%20smoking%2C%20an%20effect,rates%20to%20nonsmoking%20values%20%28Murphy%20et%20al.%2C%201988%29 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223808/#:~:text=Caffei....
Teslazar 2y ago
I'll add some more info to my post. Caffeine is a purine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine). A Google Scholar search for "molybdenum purine" will come up with many studies discussing how molybdenum is involved in purine catabolism. For example, the following article states "[molybdenum] is considered essential because it is part of a complex called molybdenum cofactor that is required for the three mammalian enzymes xanthine oxidase (XO), aldehyde oxidase (AO), and sulfite oxidase (SO). XO participates in the metabolism of purines". (https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0115426593008006277 https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.117...). When I was younger I was able to drink multiple pots of coffee in a day and even drink coffee right before going to sleep without any obvious issues. So when I couldn't even drink a single cup of coffee in the morning on a regular basis without problems I had reason to believe there was something wrong with me and it wasn't simply a genetic quirk.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  I find discussion about caffeine sensitivity in humans rather fascinating given the very broad range of the amount required to induce an effect. If those above are to be believed (or not suffering a psychosomatic response) and are still affected by decaffeinated coffee then the dosage between different individuals for given psychotropic effects to occur could be as high as 100:1. As someone who can drink copious nubmers of cups of coffee in a single sitting and notice very little effect I'm curious to know why this range is so wide (heaven help patients, doctors and pharmaceutical manufacturers if all drugs had such a wide range). Whenever I raise this the common retort is that I've developed a tolerance to caffeine, and no doubt that's true to some extent. But from experience it's pretty limited, I've been in situations where I've not had caffeinated drinks for months and not noticed any difference when I returned to them. Also, decades ago when I was a student I took up coffee to help stay awake whilst studying and it was pretty inefective. I tried evey strong brew availabe including up to five heaped teaspoons of Moccona instant coffee per cup and it was like water off a duck's back—almost useless/inefective. The question is why do some people have a supersensitive response to caffeine whilst others do not.
  - 2y ago
herbst 2y ago
Stopped here to say L-Theanine as well. It's part of my morning routine for years now and without it coffee turns literal poison for my nerves.
pillefitz 2y ago
Very interesting suggestion, will look into it. L-theanine has long been a staple of mine to counteract the effects of coffee. Typically have to redose at 4am, as the cortisol spike keeps me awake otherwise (that is, from a small coffee 26hrs ago..) These days I'm limiting my intake to once a month or so

Toutouxc 2y ago

Interesting, either the store is selling you fake decaf, or there's really a whole bunch of other chemicals, other than caffeine, that can mess with your body. I have an unusually strong response to caffeine (a cup of coffee, strong tea, or, on a bad day, even a small glass of Coke). It doesn't really affect my heart (as far as my Apple Watch can tell), but it obliterates my sleep and makes me feel quite a bit more anxious than usual. Decaf coffee solves the problem completely — no stimulation, no anxiety, normal sleep. Coincidentally, I had a tall glass of iced decaf just two hours ago, and I'm going to bed in a few minutes.

kayodelycaon 2y ago
Everybody is different. I'm sensitive enough to caffeine that trace amounts causes anxiety. I have to avoid chocolate. I'm equally sensitive to alcohol. Because it's immediately absorbed into the blood, a sip of scotch will take out my antidepressant in seconds. It's shocking how quickly and how severely even a small amount of alcohol affects me. It's almost like an allergy.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

laweijfmvo 2y ago

it might be easier to just artificially recreate "natural coffee flavor" than to try to remove everything

pillefitz 2y ago
That's exactly what I'm doing by drinking barley coffee. With some milk and sugar it's getting close to coffee (minus all the aromatic flavor)

tptacek 2y ago

I quit caffeine a decade ago and am an evangelist for doing so; garbage drug. I'm very sensitive to it, and it absolutely wrecks my sleep. But I drink like five cups of black decaf every morning, which probably works out to 10-20% of the caffeine in a normal cup, and am pretty much fine. There's enough caffeine in decaf that I'd be afraid to drink it after 2PM.

cryptonector 2y ago
I had to greatly reduce my caffeine intake at one point, and I've kept it down since. I'm inclined to agree that it's a garbage drug, but in small amounts and strictly in the morning work -like you do- it seems to work for me. Rather than drink 5 cups of decaf I drink one cup of decaf made with 6 parts decaf beans to 1 part caf. Then maybe later in the day I might eat three tiny pieces of 100% chocolate mass, but like you I'm afraid to after 2PM-ish.
- jerkstate 2y ago
  I’m a big advocate for replacing coffee with cacao. I drink it in the morning instead of coffee. Made from raw cacao paste and hot water, I use an immersion blender to mix it well and then add half and half for flavor. Way more nutrients than coffee and the theobromine is much gentler than caffeine and lasts all day.
  - cryptonector 2y ago
    Huh! Gonna have to try that!
    - daydream 2y ago
      Watch out for the lead and heavy metals and cacao https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-safety/a-third-of-chocolate-products-are-high-in-heavy-metals-a4844566398/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-safety/a-third-o...
      - 2y ago

diob 2y ago

It's mostly genetics. Some folks should never have any amount of caffeine, while others it hardly affects. I have the hardly affects gene.