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This cannot be stated enough - homeless or otherwise people do not like staying in shelters. They are small, you cannot keep stuff there, and you have to follo

This cannot be stated enough - homeless or otherwise people do not like staying in shelters. They are small, you cannot keep stuff there, and you have to follow rules. Camping represents the middle class of homelessness and is seen as a step up. It fulfills the desire for autonomy and is often the most comfortable long-term situation for people engaging in it.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Camping represents the middle class of homelessness and is seen as a step up. It fulfills the desire for autonomy and is often the most comfortable long-term situation for people engaging in it It also has negative externalities which cannot be ignored.
seadan83 2y ago
I think you undersell the "do not like staying in shelters" part. > you cannot keep stuff there If you are already low on belongings, having the rest of your stuff be stolen is not worth sleeping in a shelter Pets often cannot be kept in shelters. This is huge, give up your dog just to stay in a shelter for one night? > homeless or otherwise people do not like staying in shelters They are unpleasant and often unsafe. Theft & violence are common. Many have really gnarly intake processes where you wait in line for hours to only find out after nightfall if you are going to have space or not.
- tracker1 2y ago
  +1 on all of the above... Shelters as they are, are a no-go for most homeless.
- autoexec 2y ago
  Families are also often separated in shelters. For example a mother might be told that she and her daughter can stay, but her sons must go somewhere else to a 'men's shelter'. Parents are naturally going to want to stay with their kids.
  - ProfessorLayton 2y ago
    Wait is this actually the case? I hope this doesn't sound insensitive, because I really don't mean to, but wouldn't (Or shouldn't?) those children be in the foster care system? I know the foster care system is terrible, but certainly better than the streets.
    - autoexec 2y ago
      Sadly yes, although there are some places will let mothers stay with their sons (https://www.upworthy.com/homeless-shelters-for-women-with-teen-boys https://www.upworthy.com/homeless-shelters-for-women-with-te...) I think it's normal to want to the kids provided for even if the parents can't be helped. I just don't think the foster system could handle them all. I'd much rather see the problems leading to homelessness addressed than see the US try to get the foster system prepared to deal with the massive number of kids who don't have a stable home. It's hard to get numbers for homeless populations in general, but roughly, each year one out of every 30 children in the US is homeless. Fortunately, a lot of that is short term homelessness. A family might only need a few weeks of living in a shelter or out of their car to get back on their feet. I'm not sure how much it would help in a case like that. If we had a better handle on homelessness in the US though, I'd agree that in many cases it would be better to take the kids into foster care. Sadly, homelessness is at an all time high in the US. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rent-homelessness-harvard-report-center-for-housing-studies/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rent-homelessness-harvard-repor...) and I don't see that changing any time soon. Evictions are at record highs in many cities and counties too and that's absolutely going to put more children out on the street.
_heimdall 2y ago
Those conditions would fall well outside my definition of "good shelters". I wouldn't expect a city or state to have shelters on the level of a Ritz, but I wouldn't consider anything with fewer basics than a state penitentiary to count either. If you can't keep belongings there, that doesn't meet the bar of "better than a prison". Having to follow the rules seems reasonable, but the rules similarly should meet the bar of not being worse rules than we force on inmates.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Camping represents the middle class of homelessness and is seen as a step up. It fulfills the desire for autonomy and is often the most comfortable long-term situation for people engaging in it It also has negative externalities which cannot be ignored.

seadan83 2y ago

I think you undersell the "do not like staying in shelters" part. > you cannot keep stuff there If you are already low on belongings, having the rest of your stuff be stolen is not worth sleeping in a shelter Pets often cannot be kept in shelters. This is huge, give up your dog just to stay in a shelter for one night? > homeless or otherwise people do not like staying in shelters They are unpleasant and often unsafe. Theft & violence are common. Many have really gnarly intake processes where you wait in line for hours to only find out after nightfall if you are going to have space or not.

tracker1 2y ago
+1 on all of the above... Shelters as they are, are a no-go for most homeless.
autoexec 2y ago
Families are also often separated in shelters. For example a mother might be told that she and her daughter can stay, but her sons must go somewhere else to a 'men's shelter'. Parents are naturally going to want to stay with their kids.
- ProfessorLayton 2y ago
  Wait is this actually the case? I hope this doesn't sound insensitive, because I really don't mean to, but wouldn't (Or shouldn't?) those children be in the foster care system? I know the foster care system is terrible, but certainly better than the streets.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    Sadly yes, although there are some places will let mothers stay with their sons (https://www.upworthy.com/homeless-shelters-for-women-with-teen-boys https://www.upworthy.com/homeless-shelters-for-women-with-te...) I think it's normal to want to the kids provided for even if the parents can't be helped. I just don't think the foster system could handle them all. I'd much rather see the problems leading to homelessness addressed than see the US try to get the foster system prepared to deal with the massive number of kids who don't have a stable home. It's hard to get numbers for homeless populations in general, but roughly, each year one out of every 30 children in the US is homeless. Fortunately, a lot of that is short term homelessness. A family might only need a few weeks of living in a shelter or out of their car to get back on their feet. I'm not sure how much it would help in a case like that. If we had a better handle on homelessness in the US though, I'd agree that in many cases it would be better to take the kids into foster care. Sadly, homelessness is at an all time high in the US. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rent-homelessness-harvard-report-center-for-housing-studies/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rent-homelessness-harvard-repor...) and I don't see that changing any time soon. Evictions are at record highs in many cities and counties too and that's absolutely going to put more children out on the street.

_heimdall 2y ago

Those conditions would fall well outside my definition of "good shelters". I wouldn't expect a city or state to have shelters on the level of a Ritz, but I wouldn't consider anything with fewer basics than a state penitentiary to count either. If you can't keep belongings there, that doesn't meet the bar of "better than a prison". Having to follow the rules seems reasonable, but the rules similarly should meet the bar of not being worse rules than we force on inmates.