4 ms·

Japanese population sees greatest fall amid record foreigner growth and numbers

50 points by rntn 2y ago

downrightmike 2y ago
Title should be the same as the article "Population falls again, but foreign residents hit 3.3 million" Japan’s population shrank by 0.7 percent in 2023, although the net loss of 861,237 included a record high inflow of 329,535 foreign nationals. The non-Japanese segment of the population hit its highest level yet, but the birthrate continued to slow and areas such as the northeastern prefectures of Tohoku suffered heavy losses. Only Tokyo eked out an increase in population. As of Jan. 1, 2024, the total population was 121,561,801, according to data released by the internal affairs ministry on July 24. The figures are taken from the government’s basic resident register. The annual shrinkage was the greatest fall since the survey began in 1968. The population shrank in the three major metropolitan areas--Tokyo, Kansai and Nagoya--although the city of Tokyo saw an increase for the first time in three years, driven by people moving to the capital from elsewhere in Japan. Meanwhile, the population of foreign nationals living in Japan increased by 329,535 to 3,323,374. The figure exceeded 3 million for the first time since such data became available in 2013. Of course, Japan had an entire generation in the 90s that never got a good job and they would be in their peak years now and should be having children, but can't, so they aren't and the nation wonders why? The USA will experience the same thing because the problems of 2007 never got fixed.
- globalnode 2y ago
  instead of fixing any problems they simply rely on immigration to fill the holes. its also cheaper to import talent than train it so i dont see any reason this policy will change
10100110 2y ago
[flagged]
- para_parolu 2y ago
  Can you elaborate? How does it fall due to globalization. You also mentioned “as well” like there a re other examples.
  - jandrese 2y ago
    That line of reasoning is that countries are only for the people born to them, so if you allow other cultures into a country it will destroy the country. It is an easy way to deflect blame for your country's problems onto an already marginalized minority.
    - jvandreae 2y ago
      > countries are only for the people born to them Who are countries for, if not the people, then? The "international community"? America, as the global hegemon[0]? > easy way to deflect blame for your country's problems onto an already marginalized minority. Ultimately, the blame for allowing minorities into a country is on the people of the country for letting it happen. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/4q4tm7/every_country_belongs_to_america/ https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/4q4tm7/every_country...
      - jandrese 2y ago
        Countries are for the people living in them, regardless of where they were born.
        jvandreae 2y ago
        > Countries are for the people living in them, regardless of where they were born. If the country is composed of people who don't want to give up their culture or ethnic majority to foreign migrants, then shutting down foreign migration is completely justified. Thank you for admitting that.
- benopal64 2y ago
  Do you think traveling to Japan would slow its globalization? Do you think Japan is not globalized already? I am curious why you think that globalization would hurt Japan (you used the word: ruined).
  - serf 2y ago
    it's not hidden that globalization and all that it entails squelches out common local culture facets. there is a long list of long-dead languages that attests to this. coca-cola is the number one drink globally because of these kind of implications. >Do you think traveling to Japan would slow its globalization? I think the implication is that one should experience it now before it inevitably changes to be more homogeneous with the rest of the world.
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      Japan already has the four horsemen of globalization though: coca cola, mcdonalds, kfc, and pizza hut. There's a certain point where it stops doing anything however. Go to the pizza hut in Giza with the pyramid view. It's still very much Egypt on the street.
      - benopal64 2y ago
        It seems like some folks in this thread are conflating globalization with ultra-powerful organizations using their capital and influence to spread to the rest of the world. Other countries are simply untapped resources in their eyes. More folks to consume their products & services. I think the two can be the same, however, that does not mean they are the same.
        kjkjadksj 2y ago
        If oligarchs in one country spread to another its only because the other country already has power structures for an oligarchy in place. For the people on the ground living under an oligarchy it hardly matters what the nationality is of this oligarchy, they all read the same material.
- rustcleaner 2y ago
  Sad. I can't think of anything more anti-diversity than this "diversify all the things" fad! Soon you will go to Asia or South America, only to find little america...
wnc3141 2y ago
I've heard stereotypes but does anyone have first hand experience with how they were treated as foreign residents in Japan?
- kyleblarson 2y ago
  I haven't officially been a resident but have spent a ton of time in almost all areas of Japan. It's extremely location dependent but in my experiences in rural Japan as a gaijin there can be some initial coldness in interactions but if you show even the least amount of effort to speak the language and respect the culture that coldness evaporates.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  It’s a mix. I’m general if you respect their customs and the way of life, people in general will treat you well. Even if someone doesn’t like you they will try to treat you well, since Japan is supposed to be a polite society and treating others poorly also reflects poorly on an individual. That being said, it does come with it's own share of “foreigners not allowed or welcome” experiences. There’s also racial undertones to those experiences, where some set of people will have worse experience than others.
- fenomas 2y ago
  It's past 2am in Japan so maybe not the best time to get answers, but as I head to bed here's my two cents. The concrete daily-life answer is, I've virtually always found it an incredibly welcoming place. With very few occasional bits of garden-variety discrimination ("oh sorry this apartment isn't available for rent to foreigners"). But individuals are nearly always nice - obviously polite, but usually nice as well. And society in general is far more accommodating to foreigners than one might expect a society to be to ~2% of its population (putting English on road signs and so forth). But over the years I've noticed that lots of people online are super confident that Japan is deeply racist, which is wildly at odds with my experiences here, so I've thought a lot about where that comes from. And personally my view is that racism, as the term is generally used, isn't a meaningful thing to talk about with respect to Japan. The Japanese (broadly, oversimplifying) don't see the world in terms of race - they divide the world into Japanese and non-Japanese, and things like skin color or nationality are very distant lesser concerns. And in general, they don't at all see Japanese things as better than non - Japan is mostly fascinated with foreign things, and in many contexts looks up to them as superior to local ways. But Japan does always, always see non-Japanese things as other, and separate. And as such people are often quick to, say, attribute differences of opinion to "oh I guess that's how foreigners see this, but I'm Japanese so I see it differently", and such. And when one is on the receiving end of that, and constantly treated as separate, it can feel like racism (though I think it's misleading to model it that way). Oh, last thing to add is that regardless of how they see or treat foreigners, the median Japanese person nearly always harbors some level of dread at the thought of talking to a foreigner, since that means using English. ~Every Japanese adult took 6-10 years of English in school, and in most cases they are almost entirely unable to use it in conversation for various reasons, so many people here view using English the way I'd feel about suddenly being given a quiz in my worst subject from high school. As such, tourists who go around using English may mistake people's reactions for standoffishness or hostility - but if you live here and learn even the most absolute basic Japanese, you find everyone melts and things go fine.
begueradj 2y ago
This may explain, at least in part, the reason: "Two in Three Marriages in Japan Show “Sexless” Tendency" (https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01882/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01882/)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
xeromal 2y ago
I talked about this article with my wife a bit this morning and wanted to entertain some thoughts about the future. What are HN's thoughts on what happens when all populations start trending older and the use of immigrants to stop the decline runs out of steam? Do the elderly enslave the local young populace to keep production moving? Does the state try to incentivize the young to have children by offering state care for the new children? Does childrearing become a function of the state? Does the world collapse similar to the bronze age collapse and having children again becomes useful for their labor and their ability to take care of the elderly once the concept of 401ks and pensions disappear? Thoughts? Different ideas?
- wanderingbit 2y ago
  > Does the state try to incentivize the young to have children by offering state care for the new children? From what I have read/listened-to, efforts by governments to incentive increased birthrates have little effect. This comes from data across different countries like Denmark/Norway & the USA. Bronze Age collapse seems a little bit much ;D. My bet is that the culture changes to adapt to the higher proportion of non-working age people. So more younger and older generations will move back in with each other in order to save on the biggest household expense (the house itself) and more welfare is directed towards caring for old people in tandem with the market responding by supplying more private care. Europeans made it through ~1/3 of the population dying from The Plague, we'll make it through this _much_ less catastrophic demographic change.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > Europeans made it through ~1/3 of the population dying from The Plague, we'll make it through this _much_ less catastrophic demographic change. Depends on the country, South Korea (if current trends continue) is looking at an 60-80% shrink in a few generations.
  - wdh505 2y ago
    Well in 1967 Romania had decree 770 which had a huge impact on increasing the birthrate.
  - 2y ago

50 points by rntn 2y ago

Title should be the same as the article "Population falls again, but foreign residents hit 3.3 million" Japan’s population shrank by 0.7 percent in 2023, although the net loss of 861,237 included a record high inflow of 329,535 foreign nationals. The non-Japanese segment of the population hit its highest level yet, but the birthrate continued to slow and areas such as the northeastern prefectures of Tohoku suffered heavy losses. Only Tokyo eked out an increase in population. As of Jan. 1, 2024, the total population was 121,561,801, according to data released by the internal affairs ministry on July 24. The figures are taken from the government’s basic resident register. The annual shrinkage was the greatest fall since the survey began in 1968. The population shrank in the three major metropolitan areas--Tokyo, Kansai and Nagoya--although the city of Tokyo saw an increase for the first time in three years, driven by people moving to the capital from elsewhere in Japan. Meanwhile, the population of foreign nationals living in Japan increased by 329,535 to 3,323,374. The figure exceeded 3 million for the first time since such data became available in 2013. Of course, Japan had an entire generation in the 90s that never got a good job and they would be in their peak years now and should be having children, but can't, so they aren't and the nation wonders why? The USA will experience the same thing because the problems of 2007 never got fixed.

globalnode 2y ago
instead of fixing any problems they simply rely on immigration to fill the holes. its also cheaper to import talent than train it so i dont see any reason this policy will change

10100110 2y ago

[flagged]

para_parolu 2y ago
Can you elaborate? How does it fall due to globalization. You also mentioned “as well” like there a re other examples.
- jandrese 2y ago
  That line of reasoning is that countries are only for the people born to them, so if you allow other cultures into a country it will destroy the country. It is an easy way to deflect blame for your country's problems onto an already marginalized minority.
  - jvandreae 2y ago
    > countries are only for the people born to them Who are countries for, if not the people, then? The "international community"? America, as the global hegemon[0]? > easy way to deflect blame for your country's problems onto an already marginalized minority. Ultimately, the blame for allowing minorities into a country is on the people of the country for letting it happen. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/4q4tm7/every_country_belongs_to_america/ https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/4q4tm7/every_country...
    - jandrese 2y ago
      Countries are for the people living in them, regardless of where they were born.
      - jvandreae 2y ago
        > Countries are for the people living in them, regardless of where they were born. If the country is composed of people who don't want to give up their culture or ethnic majority to foreign migrants, then shutting down foreign migration is completely justified. Thank you for admitting that.
benopal64 2y ago
Do you think traveling to Japan would slow its globalization? Do you think Japan is not globalized already? I am curious why you think that globalization would hurt Japan (you used the word: ruined).
- serf 2y ago
  it's not hidden that globalization and all that it entails squelches out common local culture facets. there is a long list of long-dead languages that attests to this. coca-cola is the number one drink globally because of these kind of implications. >Do you think traveling to Japan would slow its globalization? I think the implication is that one should experience it now before it inevitably changes to be more homogeneous with the rest of the world.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Japan already has the four horsemen of globalization though: coca cola, mcdonalds, kfc, and pizza hut. There's a certain point where it stops doing anything however. Go to the pizza hut in Giza with the pyramid view. It's still very much Egypt on the street.
    - benopal64 2y ago
      It seems like some folks in this thread are conflating globalization with ultra-powerful organizations using their capital and influence to spread to the rest of the world. Other countries are simply untapped resources in their eyes. More folks to consume their products & services. I think the two can be the same, however, that does not mean they are the same.
      - kjkjadksj 2y ago
        If oligarchs in one country spread to another its only because the other country already has power structures for an oligarchy in place. For the people on the ground living under an oligarchy it hardly matters what the nationality is of this oligarchy, they all read the same material.
rustcleaner 2y ago
Sad. I can't think of anything more anti-diversity than this "diversify all the things" fad! Soon you will go to Asia or South America, only to find little america...

wnc3141 2y ago

I've heard stereotypes but does anyone have first hand experience with how they were treated as foreign residents in Japan?

kyleblarson 2y ago
I haven't officially been a resident but have spent a ton of time in almost all areas of Japan. It's extremely location dependent but in my experiences in rural Japan as a gaijin there can be some initial coldness in interactions but if you show even the least amount of effort to speak the language and respect the culture that coldness evaporates.
darth_avocado 2y ago
It’s a mix. I’m general if you respect their customs and the way of life, people in general will treat you well. Even if someone doesn’t like you they will try to treat you well, since Japan is supposed to be a polite society and treating others poorly also reflects poorly on an individual. That being said, it does come with it's own share of “foreigners not allowed or welcome” experiences. There’s also racial undertones to those experiences, where some set of people will have worse experience than others.
fenomas 2y ago
It's past 2am in Japan so maybe not the best time to get answers, but as I head to bed here's my two cents. The concrete daily-life answer is, I've virtually always found it an incredibly welcoming place. With very few occasional bits of garden-variety discrimination ("oh sorry this apartment isn't available for rent to foreigners"). But individuals are nearly always nice - obviously polite, but usually nice as well. And society in general is far more accommodating to foreigners than one might expect a society to be to ~2% of its population (putting English on road signs and so forth). But over the years I've noticed that lots of people online are super confident that Japan is deeply racist, which is wildly at odds with my experiences here, so I've thought a lot about where that comes from. And personally my view is that racism, as the term is generally used, isn't a meaningful thing to talk about with respect to Japan. The Japanese (broadly, oversimplifying) don't see the world in terms of race - they divide the world into Japanese and non-Japanese, and things like skin color or nationality are very distant lesser concerns. And in general, they don't at all see Japanese things as better than non - Japan is mostly fascinated with foreign things, and in many contexts looks up to them as superior to local ways. But Japan does always, always see non-Japanese things as other, and separate. And as such people are often quick to, say, attribute differences of opinion to "oh I guess that's how foreigners see this, but I'm Japanese so I see it differently", and such. And when one is on the receiving end of that, and constantly treated as separate, it can feel like racism (though I think it's misleading to model it that way). Oh, last thing to add is that regardless of how they see or treat foreigners, the median Japanese person nearly always harbors some level of dread at the thought of talking to a foreigner, since that means using English. ~Every Japanese adult took 6-10 years of English in school, and in most cases they are almost entirely unable to use it in conversation for various reasons, so many people here view using English the way I'd feel about suddenly being given a quiz in my worst subject from high school. As such, tourists who go around using English may mistake people's reactions for standoffishness or hostility - but if you live here and learn even the most absolute basic Japanese, you find everyone melts and things go fine.

begueradj 2y ago

This may explain, at least in part, the reason: "Two in Three Marriages in Japan Show “Sexless” Tendency" (https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01882/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01882/)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

xeromal 2y ago

I talked about this article with my wife a bit this morning and wanted to entertain some thoughts about the future. What are HN's thoughts on what happens when all populations start trending older and the use of immigrants to stop the decline runs out of steam? Do the elderly enslave the local young populace to keep production moving? Does the state try to incentivize the young to have children by offering state care for the new children? Does childrearing become a function of the state? Does the world collapse similar to the bronze age collapse and having children again becomes useful for their labor and their ability to take care of the elderly once the concept of 401ks and pensions disappear? Thoughts? Different ideas?

wanderingbit 2y ago
> Does the state try to incentivize the young to have children by offering state care for the new children? From what I have read/listened-to, efforts by governments to incentive increased birthrates have little effect. This comes from data across different countries like Denmark/Norway & the USA. Bronze Age collapse seems a little bit much ;D. My bet is that the culture changes to adapt to the higher proportion of non-working age people. So more younger and older generations will move back in with each other in order to save on the biggest household expense (the house itself) and more welfare is directed towards caring for old people in tandem with the market responding by supplying more private care. Europeans made it through ~1/3 of the population dying from The Plague, we'll make it through this _much_ less catastrophic demographic change.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > Europeans made it through ~1/3 of the population dying from The Plague, we'll make it through this _much_ less catastrophic demographic change. Depends on the country, South Korea (if current trends continue) is looking at an 60-80% shrink in a few generations.
- wdh505 2y ago
  Well in 1967 Romania had decree 770 which had a huge impact on increasing the birthrate.
- 2y ago