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I've been wondering why we don't see many 4-bedroom, house-sized (~2000sqft+) apartment units. It seems to me that many who balk at attached units do so because

I've been wondering why we don't see many 4-bedroom, house-sized (~2000sqft+) apartment units. It seems to me that many who balk at attached units do so because of space concerns more than proximity. Can you give more details on this?

bluGill 2y ago
There have to be two stairways in every apartment buileing. That in turn forces a hall down the middle. Every bedroom needs to have a window. Both of the above are written in the blood of those who died in fires. the result of the above is four bedroom apartments have too much space with no purpose. Try to draw any apartment and you will quickly see.
- underlipton 2y ago
  Oh, okay. I thought it would be something more esoteric. Youtuber About Here has done a few videos mentioning the two-stairway rule, but he explains it as being mostly a barrier to multi-story multi-family buildings being built on SFH-sized lots. In any case, he posits that fire mitigation strategies developed since the code came into effect (mandated sprinkler systems, fire breaks, etc.) make it unnecessary. There's also the notion that fire escape infrastructure doesn't need to be a whole other stairwell. It's one thing I hope to see change in the future.
- yencabulator 2y ago
  > There have to be two stairways in every apartment buileing. Since you're talking about this you probably know this already, but Europe largely does not follow this rule, and doesn't really suffer from horrible fires.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Much of Europe also does not use Wood in construction, unlike the US and Canada. You can't ctrl-c (Western) European designs and regulations into North America because the context is fairly different. A lot of Europeans underestimate the cultural and legal differences between North America and Western Europe.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      The area I was thinking of builds multistory residential with wood...
galdosdi 2y ago
Townhouses
- underlipton 2y ago
  Meh. Often dark, so many stairs, the ones that take advantage of verticality often don't do so to increase unit count, but unit size (and price) instead. Though, I guess what I'm thinking of is essentially horizontal townhouses. Something cool would be 4-6 story buildings with units that have command of at least 3 exterior walls, and a portion of each unit that's over the neighbor, under the neighbor, and a full 2 stories.
  - galdosdi 2y ago
    You get used to the stairs. They're good for you. That little extra workout everyday increases the floor of how lazy your lazy days can be. Huge cardiovascular benefit, especially for the laziest. Mine isn't dark. Pick good ones. "X is bad because the bad Xs are bad" is not an argument. Demand good Xs then. Horizontal suffers from (1) far less freedom. You can never tear your house down and build a different one. You can't build an addition in your yard. You can't build on an extra story or turn your roof into a balcony (2) Far harder to abate noise
    - underlipton 2y ago
      Stairs: it's not just going up and down them (with groceries, furniture, if you forgot something in another room). It's the space they take up. You're rationalizing. Most are dark. It's a simple matter of the design, if you're not an end unit. If units are to be a solution to housing issues, someone has to live in the "bad" ones. If you're making new units, might as as well build ones without townhouses' weaknesses. You can't tear down a single townhouse, they're structurally-reliant on their neighbors; you can't build on extra stories, that's also a structural issue and might break HOA rules. These hypothetical horizontal units can have yard space. Noise abatement is the same. You're ignoring the main issue: getting people out of SFH, because they take up too much space. The point is to keep as many aspects of SFH as possible. SFH have access to light from at least 3 sides, so you have to have that. They tend to have only 2 flights of stairs for ~2000 sqft units; having 3 or more is often a dealbreaker. However, many SFH have detached garages; detached storage/private yard space is probably fine. So, I think this is a solution. If townhomes were the correct answer, they'd be more successful, and not just what people are settling for because they can't afford SFH.

bluGill 2y ago

There have to be two stairways in every apartment buileing. That in turn forces a hall down the middle. Every bedroom needs to have a window. Both of the above are written in the blood of those who died in fires. the result of the above is four bedroom apartments have too much space with no purpose. Try to draw any apartment and you will quickly see.

underlipton 2y ago
Oh, okay. I thought it would be something more esoteric. Youtuber About Here has done a few videos mentioning the two-stairway rule, but he explains it as being mostly a barrier to multi-story multi-family buildings being built on SFH-sized lots. In any case, he posits that fire mitigation strategies developed since the code came into effect (mandated sprinkler systems, fire breaks, etc.) make it unnecessary. There's also the notion that fire escape infrastructure doesn't need to be a whole other stairwell. It's one thing I hope to see change in the future.
yencabulator 2y ago
> There have to be two stairways in every apartment buileing. Since you're talking about this you probably know this already, but Europe largely does not follow this rule, and doesn't really suffer from horrible fires.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Much of Europe also does not use Wood in construction, unlike the US and Canada. You can't ctrl-c (Western) European designs and regulations into North America because the context is fairly different. A lot of Europeans underestimate the cultural and legal differences between North America and Western Europe.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    The area I was thinking of builds multistory residential with wood...

galdosdi 2y ago

Townhouses

underlipton 2y ago
Meh. Often dark, so many stairs, the ones that take advantage of verticality often don't do so to increase unit count, but unit size (and price) instead. Though, I guess what I'm thinking of is essentially horizontal townhouses. Something cool would be 4-6 story buildings with units that have command of at least 3 exterior walls, and a portion of each unit that's over the neighbor, under the neighbor, and a full 2 stories.
- galdosdi 2y ago
  You get used to the stairs. They're good for you. That little extra workout everyday increases the floor of how lazy your lazy days can be. Huge cardiovascular benefit, especially for the laziest. Mine isn't dark. Pick good ones. "X is bad because the bad Xs are bad" is not an argument. Demand good Xs then. Horizontal suffers from (1) far less freedom. You can never tear your house down and build a different one. You can't build an addition in your yard. You can't build on an extra story or turn your roof into a balcony (2) Far harder to abate noise
  - underlipton 2y ago
    Stairs: it's not just going up and down them (with groceries, furniture, if you forgot something in another room). It's the space they take up. You're rationalizing. Most are dark. It's a simple matter of the design, if you're not an end unit. If units are to be a solution to housing issues, someone has to live in the "bad" ones. If you're making new units, might as as well build ones without townhouses' weaknesses. You can't tear down a single townhouse, they're structurally-reliant on their neighbors; you can't build on extra stories, that's also a structural issue and might break HOA rules. These hypothetical horizontal units can have yard space. Noise abatement is the same. You're ignoring the main issue: getting people out of SFH, because they take up too much space. The point is to keep as many aspects of SFH as possible. SFH have access to light from at least 3 sides, so you have to have that. They tend to have only 2 flights of stairs for ~2000 sqft units; having 3 or more is often a dealbreaker. However, many SFH have detached garages; detached storage/private yard space is probably fine. So, I think this is a solution. If townhomes were the correct answer, they'd be more successful, and not just what people are settling for because they can't afford SFH.