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We actually have two mechanisms: laws/regulations and customers voting with their wallet. Since we see that a majority of customers consistently go with the ch

We actually have two mechanisms: laws/regulations and customers voting with their wallet. Since we see that a majority of customers consistently go with the cheaper option, we know how they feel. So the "better" firm gets outcompeted. So regulation, you say. But those regulations are set by governments voted in by the same consumers. Their preference for lower prices is clear, and government follows their preference. Is your suggestion that the government go against the will of the people and apply those pro-worker-coop regulations anyway?

bccdee 2y ago
> Is your suggestion that the government go against the will of the people and apply those pro-worker-coop regulations anyway? This litmus test is absurd. If more consumers buy products manufactured with child labour, is it "going against the will of the people" to ban child labour? Not in any meaningful way, certainly.
eszed 2y ago
We already do this in lots of areas. It would be "cheaper" - and doubtless more profitable; lots of people would choose them! - to produce / buy, say, bicycle helmets that are made out of cardboard and nails, but we collectively recognize that would be counter-productive and require that only the "expensive" types be offered for sale. I'm sure there are some people who are upset by this.
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  It would be hard to sell bicycle helmets made out of cardboard and nails, so no collective recognition is necessary.
  - eszed 2y ago
    I made a more-substantive reply to a sister post, but... Have you seen what people buy? The front page of HN on any given day teems with posts about tech-sector equivalents to cardboard helmets. The buyers usually supply their own nails.
- Gormo 2y ago
  No, I don't think that's right at all. I don't think anyone is "collectively recognizing" anything, and the reason why bicycle helmets made of cardboard and nails are not being sold is because people -- as individuals and not "collectives" -- do not in fact want them.
  - eszed 2y ago
    Forgive me some exaggeration for comic effect. What we'd actually see are helmets which advertise themselves as safe, and which look safe to uninformed external examination, some (but not all) of which are very, very cheap, but any of which (and good luck guessing which ahead of time) might as well be made out of cardboard and nails, and so when you bump it your head explodes. (Alert: black comedy again.) Instead, in the US the DOT or the CPSC (can't be arsed to look up which) says: "every helmet sold must meet this standard of safety", and then backs that up with guns. Now you're free to price-compare, with the assurance that your head won't explode. (Yah: I keep doing it! Sorry. I like injecting levity into serious subjects. Try not to get distracted.) Consumers, acting as individuals, have negligible influence over corporate behavior, and are easily misled. People, acting collectively (in this case as a "government", but as other collective organizations, too - including "corporations"), can stand up to other collectives and force them to adjust their behavior in pro-social ways.

bccdee 2y ago

> Is your suggestion that the government go against the will of the people and apply those pro-worker-coop regulations anyway? This litmus test is absurd. If more consumers buy products manufactured with child labour, is it "going against the will of the people" to ban child labour? Not in any meaningful way, certainly.

eszed 2y ago

We already do this in lots of areas. It would be "cheaper" - and doubtless more profitable; lots of people would choose them! - to produce / buy, say, bicycle helmets that are made out of cardboard and nails, but we collectively recognize that would be counter-productive and require that only the "expensive" types be offered for sale. I'm sure there are some people who are upset by this.

baggy_trough 2y ago
It would be hard to sell bicycle helmets made out of cardboard and nails, so no collective recognition is necessary.
- eszed 2y ago
  I made a more-substantive reply to a sister post, but... Have you seen what people buy? The front page of HN on any given day teems with posts about tech-sector equivalents to cardboard helmets. The buyers usually supply their own nails.
Gormo 2y ago
No, I don't think that's right at all. I don't think anyone is "collectively recognizing" anything, and the reason why bicycle helmets made of cardboard and nails are not being sold is because people -- as individuals and not "collectives" -- do not in fact want them.
- eszed 2y ago
  Forgive me some exaggeration for comic effect. What we'd actually see are helmets which advertise themselves as safe, and which look safe to uninformed external examination, some (but not all) of which are very, very cheap, but any of which (and good luck guessing which ahead of time) might as well be made out of cardboard and nails, and so when you bump it your head explodes. (Alert: black comedy again.) Instead, in the US the DOT or the CPSC (can't be arsed to look up which) says: "every helmet sold must meet this standard of safety", and then backs that up with guns. Now you're free to price-compare, with the assurance that your head won't explode. (Yah: I keep doing it! Sorry. I like injecting levity into serious subjects. Try not to get distracted.) Consumers, acting as individuals, have negligible influence over corporate behavior, and are easily misled. People, acting collectively (in this case as a "government", but as other collective organizations, too - including "corporations"), can stand up to other collectives and force them to adjust their behavior in pro-social ways.