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Well, if this is how you think, then I am afraid no useful advice is going to penetrate your preconceived notions of inferiority. It is actually possible, and h

Well, if this is how you think, then I am afraid no useful advice is going to penetrate your preconceived notions of inferiority. It is actually possible, and happens every day at every company, that meaningful relationships exist across managerial lines or levels of seniority; it is simply an existence proof because it exists all around you. But if you are someone who rejects the evidence in front of your eyes, or feels like you are too unique/special that "normal advice" doesn't apply to you somehow, then I am sorry but you are stuck until you address these deep-seated issues about inferiority and viewing everything through a lens of enmity. FWIW, I actually personally hold two conflicting beliefs at the same time: I distrust capitalism and dislike the distribution of power between the capital-owning class and the working class in society, but I also understand and appreciate and respect the amoral ruthless effectiveness of capitalism. So, I can emphasize to some degree about the moral unfairness of an amoral corporation holding your livelihood over your head, but I can also build real relationships based on human connection, while compartmentalizing the human part away from the structural imbalance of capitalism part.

apwell23 2y ago
Inferior is not a "feeling". You are in a inferior position to your boss, thats why they are call your "superior" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior "one who is above another in rank, station, or office" I am not sure why you are hung up on words anyways. I have a feeling you might be trolling me for fun.
- strgcmc 2y ago
  Look, you asked for advice, I gave some advice and suggested you do some introspection, and just based on the evidence of this comment chain alone, we can see the answers to some of my earlier-suggested questions: - You aren't willing to accept feedback or alternative challenges to your base worldview. You like to twist conversations so that they happen on your terms only. - You are unlikely to revisit a previously-held belief, or you rarely change your mind based on new information or new perspectives, or you are unlikely to admit mistakes or acknowledging that the viewpoints of others can also be valid (in fact, specifically you seem unable to comprehend that, admitting that someone else's perspective is valid != admitting yours must be wrong... it's not a zero-sum game, but you seem to think it is). - When you try to ask for help (again, you were the one who asked for advice in the first place...), some people may try once, but they won't want to continue talking to you, because there is no mutual benefit here. Nobody gets anything positive out of talking to you in this manner, if you bring nothing to the table besides negativity and appeal to surface-level pedantry (e.g. definitions from the dictionary? simple acknowledgement that power structures exist?). If you actually learn how to have constructive conversations, where both parties get something positive out of it (aka make it non-zero-sum), then I promise you, you will find more traction with relationship-building, AND it won't feel like "sucking up". But if you can't learn how to do this, then I fear that people will rightfully avoid talking to you, because they get nothing from it except the misery you inflict on them. --- I'm sure you'll want to get a last-word in, so feel free to do that (and likewise, I will exercise my freedom to not respond and just go about my own life). But if you ever have a change of heart, perhaps when you gain a little more maturity or perspective and you somehow revisit this thread, then you may realize that: - I already agreed with you that power structures exist esp. under capitalism, that essentially yes, "superior" or "inferior" are necessary-but-not-sufficient factually true labels. Nonetheless, these labels fail to capture the complete spectrum of human relationships, and you offered nothing substantive to refute this point either, so I assume you either don't understand it, or are incapable of acknowledging new information or alternative perspectives. - I tried to suggest, in various ways with a few leading questions, that you lack humility and an inability to accept feedback. IMHO, this along with your reductive stubbornness about reducing working relationships into simple "boss vs underling" power structures, are the most direct reasons for your professional struggles. In other words, you don't need to learn "how to suck up". You need to reframe your entire approach to human relationships, and recast it in terms other than the one-dimensional interpretation of power structures... We live in a multi-dimensional world, but your "mental model" is too simple, because you reduce everyone to a one-dimensional vector embedding with a single boolean flag: "is_superior (T/F)". - If you think I am over-focusing on one particular phrase like "sucking up", then you were free to offer alternative angles for discourse, if you wanted to steer the conversation in a more productive direction. But what you ended up doing was basically trying to suck me into the same pit of misery that you inhabit, where superiors are evil and holding your livelihood at threat... maybe that's a fun way to pass the time for you, but frankly there's nothing productive about going down that path, so I won't join you there (and I sincerely hope you find a way to climb out of it yourself). --- As a parting gift, here are some random resources for career growth (I don't know if you are an engineer or a manager or what, but perspectives about other people can still be helpful). I hope if you are sincerely trying to grow and overcome personal limitations, that you are willing to engage with curiosity and humility, to learn something new that might challenge your preconceived ways of interpreting the world: - https://staffeng.com/guides/ https://staffeng.com/guides/ - https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/engineering-career-paths https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/engineering-caree... - https://github.com/keyvanakbary/learning-notes/blob/master/books/the-managers-path.md https://github.com/keyvanakbary/learning-notes/blob/master/b... - https://www.learninpublic.org/ https://www.learninpublic.org/
  - billbrown 2y ago
    I suspect that he'll dismiss all this on some irrelevant grounds but this is supremely patient and helpful. You've given him all the feedback and tools to completely change his life if he can lower the shields and soberly introspect. Very kind. I'm sure it felt thankless but I appreciated witnessing it.
    - ds1977 2y ago
      100% agree. Supremely patient and helpful. It is so clear in this back and forth that there is so much more going on than a refusal to "suck up".
  - MattSayar 2y ago
    I just want to say that at multiple points in this thread, you could've descended to GP's level, but you didn't. You gave even-keeled advice with fair observations, and remained compassionate throughout. I respect your approach a lot here, and I hope GP maybe learned something. Probably not, but I bet you're a good manager!

apwell23 2y ago

Inferior is not a "feeling". You are in a inferior position to your boss, thats why they are call your "superior" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior "one who is above another in rank, station, or office" I am not sure why you are hung up on words anyways. I have a feeling you might be trolling me for fun.

strgcmc 2y ago
Look, you asked for advice, I gave some advice and suggested you do some introspection, and just based on the evidence of this comment chain alone, we can see the answers to some of my earlier-suggested questions: - You aren't willing to accept feedback or alternative challenges to your base worldview. You like to twist conversations so that they happen on your terms only. - You are unlikely to revisit a previously-held belief, or you rarely change your mind based on new information or new perspectives, or you are unlikely to admit mistakes or acknowledging that the viewpoints of others can also be valid (in fact, specifically you seem unable to comprehend that, admitting that someone else's perspective is valid != admitting yours must be wrong... it's not a zero-sum game, but you seem to think it is). - When you try to ask for help (again, you were the one who asked for advice in the first place...), some people may try once, but they won't want to continue talking to you, because there is no mutual benefit here. Nobody gets anything positive out of talking to you in this manner, if you bring nothing to the table besides negativity and appeal to surface-level pedantry (e.g. definitions from the dictionary? simple acknowledgement that power structures exist?). If you actually learn how to have constructive conversations, where both parties get something positive out of it (aka make it non-zero-sum), then I promise you, you will find more traction with relationship-building, AND it won't feel like "sucking up". But if you can't learn how to do this, then I fear that people will rightfully avoid talking to you, because they get nothing from it except the misery you inflict on them. --- I'm sure you'll want to get a last-word in, so feel free to do that (and likewise, I will exercise my freedom to not respond and just go about my own life). But if you ever have a change of heart, perhaps when you gain a little more maturity or perspective and you somehow revisit this thread, then you may realize that: - I already agreed with you that power structures exist esp. under capitalism, that essentially yes, "superior" or "inferior" are necessary-but-not-sufficient factually true labels. Nonetheless, these labels fail to capture the complete spectrum of human relationships, and you offered nothing substantive to refute this point either, so I assume you either don't understand it, or are incapable of acknowledging new information or alternative perspectives. - I tried to suggest, in various ways with a few leading questions, that you lack humility and an inability to accept feedback. IMHO, this along with your reductive stubbornness about reducing working relationships into simple "boss vs underling" power structures, are the most direct reasons for your professional struggles. In other words, you don't need to learn "how to suck up". You need to reframe your entire approach to human relationships, and recast it in terms other than the one-dimensional interpretation of power structures... We live in a multi-dimensional world, but your "mental model" is too simple, because you reduce everyone to a one-dimensional vector embedding with a single boolean flag: "is_superior (T/F)". - If you think I am over-focusing on one particular phrase like "sucking up", then you were free to offer alternative angles for discourse, if you wanted to steer the conversation in a more productive direction. But what you ended up doing was basically trying to suck me into the same pit of misery that you inhabit, where superiors are evil and holding your livelihood at threat... maybe that's a fun way to pass the time for you, but frankly there's nothing productive about going down that path, so I won't join you there (and I sincerely hope you find a way to climb out of it yourself). --- As a parting gift, here are some random resources for career growth (I don't know if you are an engineer or a manager or what, but perspectives about other people can still be helpful). I hope if you are sincerely trying to grow and overcome personal limitations, that you are willing to engage with curiosity and humility, to learn something new that might challenge your preconceived ways of interpreting the world: - https://staffeng.com/guides/ https://staffeng.com/guides/ - https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/engineering-career-paths https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/engineering-caree... - https://github.com/keyvanakbary/learning-notes/blob/master/books/the-managers-path.md https://github.com/keyvanakbary/learning-notes/blob/master/b... - https://www.learninpublic.org/ https://www.learninpublic.org/
- billbrown 2y ago
  I suspect that he'll dismiss all this on some irrelevant grounds but this is supremely patient and helpful. You've given him all the feedback and tools to completely change his life if he can lower the shields and soberly introspect. Very kind. I'm sure it felt thankless but I appreciated witnessing it.
  - ds1977 2y ago
    100% agree. Supremely patient and helpful. It is so clear in this back and forth that there is so much more going on than a refusal to "suck up".
- MattSayar 2y ago
  I just want to say that at multiple points in this thread, you could've descended to GP's level, but you didn't. You gave even-keeled advice with fair observations, and remained compassionate throughout. I respect your approach a lot here, and I hope GP maybe learned something. Probably not, but I bet you're a good manager!