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A 10 minute walk through Israel ... "But the dominant group in Israel has internal diversity; therefore it can't be the dominant group" -- is that the countera

A 10 minute walk through Israel ... "But the dominant group in Israel has internal diversity; therefore it can't be the dominant group" -- is that the counterargument, here?

raxxorraxor 2y ago
No, that would be contradiction. Do you try to imply that a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Perhaps I lazily assumed the parent would refer to ethnicity when throwing the accusation of an ethnostate around? Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? It should be possible to answer that question if the accusation is in any way substantial. Some ethnicities (and religions for that matter) might have serious problems in the wider region. Many do flee to Israel for safety in that case. That is the reality here and I would say that this fact is pretty hard to dispute without pointing fingers at less fortunate circumstances that maybe lead to less tolerance than there is in Israel.
- racional 2y ago
  That a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Of course the fact of one group being dominant is not sufficient; there need to be deeply structural (legal) mechanisms in place for that group to maintain its dominance, which has certainly been the case with Israel since its very founding. You may consult the definitions in Wikipedia as to "ethnostate" and "ethnic group" for further detail if you wish. Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? The one referred to in Sections 1, 5, 6 and 7 (and whose language is given preferential treatment in Section 4) of the Nation State Bill.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    Related, Database of discriminatory laws in Israel: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index Regarding the myth of a diverse legislator negating an ethnostate, this is easily disprooven by looking at the legislator of unambiguous ethnostates of history. Even Rhodesia had a way more diverse legislator than today’s Israel.
  - raxxorraxor 2y ago
    There is no article about an ethnostate but if you use the widest possible definition of ethnicity and this ethnicity forming a common state would be considered an ethnostate, I guess Israel would be an ethnostate too. As probably most if not all other countries in the world as well. What would your criticism of that be specifically? Again, minorities often try to flee to Israel for different reasons, not the other way around. This is easy to observe. Then Syria is an ethnostate as it is called the Syrian Arab Republic. Egypt is an ethnostate, as it is called the Arab Republic of Egypt. I believe the pattern is obvious? I cannot shake the feeling that some might utter this criticism because in case of Israel it would likely be a Jewish majority nation. But the existence and political participation of non-Jews makes it clear that you try to use ethnostate differently.
    - runarberg 2y ago
      I’m not an expert in Israeli law, but I’m sure quite a few laws in Israel meat the definition of ethno-state, which is practices and policies that favors shifting the demography in favor of a particular ethnic group. Wikipedia actually has a few examples of laws which meet the criteria[1], including the nation state law. If we look at the practices it becomes very clear that Israel meats the criteria of being an ethnostate. The immigration policy prohibits a single ethnic group (Palestinian Arabs) from immigrating, while creating the conditions for that same ethnic group (as well as others, such as Bedouin) to emigrate. The conditions for emigration includes confiscating land, limiting mobility, etc. In the occupied territories these practices become abundantly clear, and we even have an ICJ case backing this narrative[2]. Ethno-states are actually quite rare in history, you need a pretty strong military or police to enforce demographic policies, and before industrialization most states didn’t have that. Ironically one can argue that Roman Judea would meat that critearia when they expelled all the Jews. Notably they didn’t have the same ethno-demographic policies in neighboring Galilee, hinting that this was an expensive policy which the Roman state deemed not worth the costs. After industrialization ethno-states become a much more viable option, but we still mostly see them as a single ethnic regions of empires, most commonly via settler colonialism, where the settler are the ethnic rulers. And even then the policies were usually short lived as local population pushed back. Syria does not have practices and policies to shift the demography in favor of one ethnic group at the cost of another, and neither does Egypt. One can argue that Turkey does (against the Kurdish people) but this does not come anywhere close to the ethnic policies enacted by Israel today. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy#Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy#Israel 2: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186 https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186

A 10 minute walk through Israel ... "But the dominant group in Israel has internal diversity; therefore it can't be the dominant group" -- is that the counterargument, here?

raxxorraxor 2y ago

No, that would be contradiction. Do you try to imply that a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Perhaps I lazily assumed the parent would refer to ethnicity when throwing the accusation of an ethnostate around? Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? It should be possible to answer that question if the accusation is in any way substantial. Some ethnicities (and religions for that matter) might have serious problems in the wider region. Many do flee to Israel for safety in that case. That is the reality here and I would say that this fact is pretty hard to dispute without pointing fingers at less fortunate circumstances that maybe lead to less tolerance than there is in Israel.

racional 2y ago
That a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Of course the fact of one group being dominant is not sufficient; there need to be deeply structural (legal) mechanisms in place for that group to maintain its dominance, which has certainly been the case with Israel since its very founding. You may consult the definitions in Wikipedia as to "ethnostate" and "ethnic group" for further detail if you wish. Which ethnicity would that refer to in your opinion? The one referred to in Sections 1, 5, 6 and 7 (and whose language is given preferential treatment in Section 4) of the Nation State Bill.
- runarberg 2y ago
  Related, Database of discriminatory laws in Israel: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index Regarding the myth of a diverse legislator negating an ethnostate, this is easily disprooven by looking at the legislator of unambiguous ethnostates of history. Even Rhodesia had a way more diverse legislator than today’s Israel.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  There is no article about an ethnostate but if you use the widest possible definition of ethnicity and this ethnicity forming a common state would be considered an ethnostate, I guess Israel would be an ethnostate too. As probably most if not all other countries in the world as well. What would your criticism of that be specifically? Again, minorities often try to flee to Israel for different reasons, not the other way around. This is easy to observe. Then Syria is an ethnostate as it is called the Syrian Arab Republic. Egypt is an ethnostate, as it is called the Arab Republic of Egypt. I believe the pattern is obvious? I cannot shake the feeling that some might utter this criticism because in case of Israel it would likely be a Jewish majority nation. But the existence and political participation of non-Jews makes it clear that you try to use ethnostate differently.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    I’m not an expert in Israeli law, but I’m sure quite a few laws in Israel meat the definition of ethno-state, which is practices and policies that favors shifting the demography in favor of a particular ethnic group. Wikipedia actually has a few examples of laws which meet the criteria[1], including the nation state law. If we look at the practices it becomes very clear that Israel meats the criteria of being an ethnostate. The immigration policy prohibits a single ethnic group (Palestinian Arabs) from immigrating, while creating the conditions for that same ethnic group (as well as others, such as Bedouin) to emigrate. The conditions for emigration includes confiscating land, limiting mobility, etc. In the occupied territories these practices become abundantly clear, and we even have an ICJ case backing this narrative[2]. Ethno-states are actually quite rare in history, you need a pretty strong military or police to enforce demographic policies, and before industrialization most states didn’t have that. Ironically one can argue that Roman Judea would meat that critearia when they expelled all the Jews. Notably they didn’t have the same ethno-demographic policies in neighboring Galilee, hinting that this was an expensive policy which the Roman state deemed not worth the costs. After industrialization ethno-states become a much more viable option, but we still mostly see them as a single ethnic regions of empires, most commonly via settler colonialism, where the settler are the ethnic rulers. And even then the policies were usually short lived as local population pushed back. Syria does not have practices and policies to shift the demography in favor of one ethnic group at the cost of another, and neither does Egypt. One can argue that Turkey does (against the Kurdish people) but this does not come anywhere close to the ethnic policies enacted by Israel today. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy#Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy#Israel 2: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186 https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186