13 ms·

> To take over the market companies need to attract customers - i.e. make their lives better. Usually there are more consumers than employees - so I think that

> To take over the market companies need to attract customers - i.e. make their lives better. Usually there are more consumers than employees - so I think that measure works quite well with optimising for humans. Profit is a side effect of taking over the market. Quantity of people benefitted isn't the only measure: magnitude of benefit is also relevant. The customer at a 7Eleven benefits in that they get to... what, buy snacks conveniently? Versus the worker who receives their entire livelihood and benefits, it becomes obvious that workers are the primary beneficiaries of a company. > But actually to have any employees companies need to optimize for workers lives anyway. This is quite obviously false. All companies have to do is present a united front on keeping pay low and benefits nonexistent to prevent workers from having better options. I.e. USA 2024. > And it seems that cooperatives are not any better in this area - otherwise everybody would work for cooperatives. Why is that exactly?

throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
>All companies have to do is present a united front on keeping pay low and benefits nonexistent to prevent workers from having better options. I.e. USA 2024. Can we leave the cynical antiwork comments out? They aren't helpful. This is obviously not the case for a majority of companies and anecdotes don't help. Everyone is for the highest pay possible until they run their own company and have to provide payroll.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > Can we leave the cynical antiwork comments out? They aren't helpful. This is obviously not the case for a majority of companies and anecdotes don't help. Major companies are regularly prosecuted for conspiracy to suppress wages. It if weren't for government intervention your wages would be much lower and there wouldn't be anything you can do about it. This blind faith that billion dollar corporations would behave ethically is highly inappropriate https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    Most companies aren't "major companies". I'm for busting up the big monopolies, but I'm not for throwing the baby out with the bath water and imposing communist reforms on all businesses, most of which are small and generally well behaved, just because some big ones with pathological behavior exist.
    - specialist 2y ago
      There's A LOT of daylight between liberal capitalism and communist socialism. The social democracies, a middle path, as the Nordic countries have experimented with, seem to have done quite well. And there's now strong evidence that our system (neoliberalism) has stunted economic growth. Regardless... I support simple social reforms, like sovereign wealth funds (Alaska, Norway) and universal healthcare, greatly reducing the tension between labor and capital. Then these labor, employment, and ownership reforms wouldn't be so fraught.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        This discussion is about the proposal to, by law, force all businesses to be workers cooperatives. That's not the liberal capitalism found in Nordic countries, it's communism.
        ClumsyPilot 2y ago
        Communism does not have businesses, worker owned or otherwise. It does not even have currency and money at all. Early form of capitalism didn't have limited liability companies. Just because you have to use Unlimited Liability Partnerships, for example, that does not mean it's not capitalism. Once we move beyond capitalism, there are other words too, like mercantilism, imperialism, Neo-feudalism (arguably what we are getting to), schumpeterianism, etc. Expand your vocabulary.
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        >Communism does not have businesses, worker owned or otherwise. It does not even have currency and money at all. Huh? You seem to know absolutely nothing about how the Soviet Union worked. They certainly did have money and companies. (And don't give me that BS about the CCCP not being "true communists" -- No True Scotsman fallacy)
- bdw5204 2y ago
  As it turns out, the Federal Reserve chairman happens to be on record as wanting to suppress wages because he blames high wages for inflation[0]. In other words, the current dumpster fire of an economy was the intended goal of the Federal Reserve's interest rate increases. [0]: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/30/feds-powell-inflation-workers-wages-00071403 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/30/feds-powell-inflati...
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > Everyone is for the highest pay possible until they run their own company and have to provide payroll. And even then, there are lots of companies who want to provide the highest pay possible. I have always strived for this in my companies, anyway.
- kerkeslager 2y ago
  > This is obviously not the case for a majority of companies and anecdotes don't help. That isn't obvious at all. The US has the one of the highest pay gaps of any developed nation. Our largest companies with the richest executives have employees on food stamps. I'm not being cynical, I'm talking about reality, and I'm not going to shut up about it just so you can maintain your comfortable naivete on this issue. > Everyone is for the highest pay possible until they run their own company and have to provide payroll. If you can't pay your workers a living wage your business has failed in the only way I care about.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    > The US has the highest pay gap of any nation. This doesn't contradict your point, but fwiw the pay gap of quite a few other nations come before the US. In terms of RP, the US ranks about 35th, behind many African and Asian nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...
    - brnt 2y ago
      You left a key word out in the quote. Nobody wants to compete with Saudi Arabia when it comes to equality.
      - kerkeslager 2y ago
        In fairness to fragmede, I was editing my post when they responded.

throwaway7ahgb 2y ago

>All companies have to do is present a united front on keeping pay low and benefits nonexistent to prevent workers from having better options. I.e. USA 2024. Can we leave the cynical antiwork comments out? They aren't helpful. This is obviously not the case for a majority of companies and anecdotes don't help. Everyone is for the highest pay possible until they run their own company and have to provide payroll.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> Can we leave the cynical antiwork comments out? They aren't helpful. This is obviously not the case for a majority of companies and anecdotes don't help. Major companies are regularly prosecuted for conspiracy to suppress wages. It if weren't for government intervention your wages would be much lower and there wouldn't be anything you can do about it. This blind faith that billion dollar corporations would behave ethically is highly inappropriate https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Most companies aren't "major companies". I'm for busting up the big monopolies, but I'm not for throwing the baby out with the bath water and imposing communist reforms on all businesses, most of which are small and generally well behaved, just because some big ones with pathological behavior exist.
  - specialist 2y ago
    There's A LOT of daylight between liberal capitalism and communist socialism. The social democracies, a middle path, as the Nordic countries have experimented with, seem to have done quite well. And there's now strong evidence that our system (neoliberalism) has stunted economic growth. Regardless... I support simple social reforms, like sovereign wealth funds (Alaska, Norway) and universal healthcare, greatly reducing the tension between labor and capital. Then these labor, employment, and ownership reforms wouldn't be so fraught.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      This discussion is about the proposal to, by law, force all businesses to be workers cooperatives. That's not the liberal capitalism found in Nordic countries, it's communism.
      - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
        Communism does not have businesses, worker owned or otherwise. It does not even have currency and money at all. Early form of capitalism didn't have limited liability companies. Just because you have to use Unlimited Liability Partnerships, for example, that does not mean it's not capitalism. Once we move beyond capitalism, there are other words too, like mercantilism, imperialism, Neo-feudalism (arguably what we are getting to), schumpeterianism, etc. Expand your vocabulary.
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        >Communism does not have businesses, worker owned or otherwise. It does not even have currency and money at all. Huh? You seem to know absolutely nothing about how the Soviet Union worked. They certainly did have money and companies. (And don't give me that BS about the CCCP not being "true communists" -- No True Scotsman fallacy)
bdw5204 2y ago
As it turns out, the Federal Reserve chairman happens to be on record as wanting to suppress wages because he blames high wages for inflation[0]. In other words, the current dumpster fire of an economy was the intended goal of the Federal Reserve's interest rate increases. [0]: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/30/feds-powell-inflation-workers-wages-00071403 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/30/feds-powell-inflati...
JohnFen 2y ago
> Everyone is for the highest pay possible until they run their own company and have to provide payroll. And even then, there are lots of companies who want to provide the highest pay possible. I have always strived for this in my companies, anyway.
kerkeslager 2y ago
> This is obviously not the case for a majority of companies and anecdotes don't help. That isn't obvious at all. The US has the one of the highest pay gaps of any developed nation. Our largest companies with the richest executives have employees on food stamps. I'm not being cynical, I'm talking about reality, and I'm not going to shut up about it just so you can maintain your comfortable naivete on this issue. > Everyone is for the highest pay possible until they run their own company and have to provide payroll. If you can't pay your workers a living wage your business has failed in the only way I care about.
- fragmede 2y ago
  > The US has the highest pay gap of any nation. This doesn't contradict your point, but fwiw the pay gap of quite a few other nations come before the US. In terms of RP, the US ranks about 35th, behind many African and Asian nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...
  - brnt 2y ago
    You left a key word out in the quote. Nobody wants to compete with Saudi Arabia when it comes to equality.
    - kerkeslager 2y ago
      In fairness to fragmede, I was editing my post when they responded.