4 ms·

Last time I looked at data, worker coops were less likely to fail than most other corporate structures.

by vidarh 2y ago

Jensson 2y ago
[flagged]
- vidarh 2y ago
  Doesn't generally seem supported by data. E.g. https://www.fiftybyfifty.org/2021/06/workers-at-cooperatives-report-high-job-satisfaction-and-community-engagement/ https://www.fiftybyfifty.org/2021/06/workers-at-cooperatives... Elsewhere I've seen some reporting on cooperatives report lower satisfaction on some metrics, usually suspected to be exactly because worker cooperatives tend to give employees more of a stake and so stress levels around the future of the business may be higher. At the same time, it is flawed to focus on any purported notion that they don't optimize for "worker happiness" because workers decide what they optimize for. And so that may or may not be "happiness" for any given coop, but it certainly does mean optimizing for what workers care about. Comparing that to, I presume the notion of e.g. the Soviet Union as representative of "communism", where workers had near no say in what the dicators imposed on them, seems to be a rather crass and gross misrepresentation when used as a comparison for workers coops where they do have a say.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > just like how communism There is some kind of derangement in the English speaking West, any attempt to reign in power of capital must be communist. If free public libraries didn't exist and were proposed today, they'd be accused of communism. If free public legal deference did not exist today, anyone proposing it would be accused of being a communist. Also notice that using public money to hurt a person, i.e. prosecution, is never accused of an ideology. These sort of comparisons are deeply unhelpful and only betray illiteracy of the accuser.
  - tristor 2y ago
    This criticism would carry more weight if this entire thread wasn't full of snippets of communist fanfic about using legal force to try to upend reality and ending the profit motive for companies and enforcing worker collectives.
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      > using legal force to try to upend reality You mean like how we upended reality in 2008 to save corrupt institutions and/or incompetent institutions? And then again during COVID? And then again to save Silicon Valley Bank? You pretend that current situation some kind of natural state of affairs, when in reality it is a result of ‘legal force for me but not for the’
      - tristor 2y ago
        None of those things are reality, those are how we chose as a society to interface with it. Now that they've happened, they form a part of the fabric of reality, that is the history of the universe and humanity as a species. When I say "upend reality", I mean the idealist delusions that commies hold about the nature of entropy, the nature of humanity (acting like greed doesn't exist, forgetting the iron law of bureaucracy), and the nature of the world (eat or be eaten).
        consteval 2y ago
        Yes some people hold different views on the nature of humanity. That doesn't mean they're delusional, it just means they're different. Personally, no I don't think greed is intrinsic. I think its learned. I also don't think its eat or be eaten. I think that's learned, ingrained, to benefit the most powerful. I think 99% of people are good and just want a decent life. They don't care about having more or being better.
        tristor 2y ago
        The problem is those people are trying to intellectualize animals. Humans are animals. We, presumably, have free will. We, presumably, have rationality. While these traits make us higher order animals, we are still animals, and the law of the jungle always applies. It is delusional to act otherwise, because when push comes to shove if it's a choice between starvation/death or nearly any alternative, people will choose the alternative every time, which includes violent acts, acts of greed, and all manner of despicable things. I'm not even making a moral argument here, morals are irrelevant. Morals are a fiction created by people to philosophize our own societies. But the reality of the world transcends humanity and we cannot avoid it.

Last time I looked at data, worker coops were less likely to fail than most other corporate structures.

by vidarh 2y ago

Last time I looked at data, worker coops were less likely to fail than most other corporate structures.

Jensson 2y ago

[flagged]

vidarh 2y ago
Doesn't generally seem supported by data. E.g. https://www.fiftybyfifty.org/2021/06/workers-at-cooperatives-report-high-job-satisfaction-and-community-engagement/ https://www.fiftybyfifty.org/2021/06/workers-at-cooperatives... Elsewhere I've seen some reporting on cooperatives report lower satisfaction on some metrics, usually suspected to be exactly because worker cooperatives tend to give employees more of a stake and so stress levels around the future of the business may be higher. At the same time, it is flawed to focus on any purported notion that they don't optimize for "worker happiness" because workers decide what they optimize for. And so that may or may not be "happiness" for any given coop, but it certainly does mean optimizing for what workers care about. Comparing that to, I presume the notion of e.g. the Soviet Union as representative of "communism", where workers had near no say in what the dicators imposed on them, seems to be a rather crass and gross misrepresentation when used as a comparison for workers coops where they do have a say.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> just like how communism There is some kind of derangement in the English speaking West, any attempt to reign in power of capital must be communist. If free public libraries didn't exist and were proposed today, they'd be accused of communism. If free public legal deference did not exist today, anyone proposing it would be accused of being a communist. Also notice that using public money to hurt a person, i.e. prosecution, is never accused of an ideology. These sort of comparisons are deeply unhelpful and only betray illiteracy of the accuser.
- tristor 2y ago
  This criticism would carry more weight if this entire thread wasn't full of snippets of communist fanfic about using legal force to try to upend reality and ending the profit motive for companies and enforcing worker collectives.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    > using legal force to try to upend reality You mean like how we upended reality in 2008 to save corrupt institutions and/or incompetent institutions? And then again during COVID? And then again to save Silicon Valley Bank? You pretend that current situation some kind of natural state of affairs, when in reality it is a result of ‘legal force for me but not for the’
    - tristor 2y ago
      None of those things are reality, those are how we chose as a society to interface with it. Now that they've happened, they form a part of the fabric of reality, that is the history of the universe and humanity as a species. When I say "upend reality", I mean the idealist delusions that commies hold about the nature of entropy, the nature of humanity (acting like greed doesn't exist, forgetting the iron law of bureaucracy), and the nature of the world (eat or be eaten).
      - consteval 2y ago
        Yes some people hold different views on the nature of humanity. That doesn't mean they're delusional, it just means they're different. Personally, no I don't think greed is intrinsic. I think its learned. I also don't think its eat or be eaten. I think that's learned, ingrained, to benefit the most powerful. I think 99% of people are good and just want a decent life. They don't care about having more or being better.
        tristor 2y ago
        The problem is those people are trying to intellectualize animals. Humans are animals. We, presumably, have free will. We, presumably, have rationality. While these traits make us higher order animals, we are still animals, and the law of the jungle always applies. It is delusional to act otherwise, because when push comes to shove if it's a choice between starvation/death or nearly any alternative, people will choose the alternative every time, which includes violent acts, acts of greed, and all manner of despicable things. I'm not even making a moral argument here, morals are irrelevant. Morals are a fiction created by people to philosophize our own societies. But the reality of the world transcends humanity and we cannot avoid it.