13 ms·

How about every employee instead gets money every month, and then can go out an buy shares in any company they want, their own or others?

ossobuco 2y ago
How does that work when 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck? When you're not sure if you'll manage to pay the electricity bills to keep your fridge turned on, is your first thought going to be "let's invest in the market!"?
- TechDebtDevin 2y ago
  Peasent brain, they think they too can be rich like their corporate owners one day so they will support them and justify this brain rotted thinking until they die poor.
- eru 2y ago
  Interpreted charitably, you are making an argument that people's comp should be higher. But I don't see any argument that paying that higher comp in the form of shares instead of in the form of cash is any better? (Unless you want to imply that people are too dumb and need to be protected from themselves, and that why we need to give them more stocks instead of more cash? Or something else?)
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    > Interpreted charitably No need for your charity, thanks. I'm simply making the argument that you must live in a bubble if you think that enough people have the excess liquidity and market knowledge for this to be an applicable solution to the general population. > Unless you want to imply that people are too dumb and need to be protected from themselves Not being wise in the markets != being dumb. Protected from themselves? No, protected from speculators and exploiters.
    - eru 2y ago
      Nudging people to own a substantial chunk of their net worth in one single company protects them from speculators and exploiters? OK..
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        When the alternative is owning no chunk of any company? Yes, still orders of magnitude better. Nothing prevents people from investing also in other companies if they feel like. Or are you implying they are "too dumb" to consider the possibility? Shared ownership also protects employees from speculative decisions like mass layoffs made only to give more value to shareholders. It also prevents the alienation of working on something you don't own and gives a strong incentive for everyone to give their best.
        its_ethan 2y ago
        > Nothing prevents people from investing also in other companies if they feel like I thought you just said that this isn't a viable option for most people? Now it is on the table? > are you implying they are "too dumb" to consider the possibility For what it's worth, reading through this thread, it seems like you were the one who claimed most people don't have "market knowledge"...
        ossobuco 2y ago
        Oh please, you don't even know anymore what's your argument, do you? You just hate to be reminded that the bubble you live in is in now way accurately reflective of the reality most people live in.
        its_ethan 2y ago
        I am not the person you were arguing with, so sure maybe I don't know what the other guys argument is lol I was just commenting on what I was seeing in your comments - sorry that I struck a nerve.. I'm not sure what bubble you think I'm living in, given how little you know about me. But in "your bubble" it doesn't seem like there's a way to reconcile two very antithetical propositions: 1- people don't have the resources/knowledge to invest, but also 2- they can use their excess resources to diversify away from having significant investment with solely their employer. How does that work? And just to re-iterate, no one besides you has brought up the intelligence of "most people" when it comes to the ability to invest. So...?
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    >you are making an argument that people's comp should be higher. That's a good argument to make. Among the entire workforce of a successful employee-owned org, I would think there would be no disagreement, IOW nothing to argue about. It surely depends how successful, but all you need is to do the math to know for sure. Beyond a certain threshold, companies where most of the workers are living paycheck-to-paycheck can end up paying them more and that bugaboo can go away completely. Whether or not they are actually awarded or entitled to any shares in their employer yet. Even during a time when it's just the rest of the employees owning the company. What good are shares if you're never going to sell? I mean never sell your shares nor (vote to) sell the company. The only thing shares like that entitle you to is dividends. And you only get dividends when the company makes enough money to declare a dividend. Over and above any shortcomings that might need to be overcome. The net difference is that distributions that go to outside investors under the more-familiar arrangement, are instead returned only to employees when they are the only shareholders. And sometimes that could be a very life-changing difference for doing the exact same work. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That's why you do the math.
- nitwit005 2y ago
  I presume it'll work exactly as well as paying them partially in stock, as the stock and cash are interchangeable. The people who need money now will just sell the stock as soon as they can.
- konschubert 2y ago
  If they are really living paycheck to paycheck, giving them shares in the company instead of paying them isn't going to help much either. Or are you suggesting that employees just get a fixed share when they join the company? That model exists, but it typically only works for companies that need no outside capital to get started. Like law firms.
- lennixm 2y ago
  People need to stop using this stat. It's completely useless. There are literally people making top percentile incomes saying they're living paycheck to paycheck in these surveys because they interpret the survey questions wildly different than other people. A tiny, tiny percentage of Americans would literally go hungry if they didn't get their next month's paycheck the rest would have to cash out some small percentage of their S&P 500 ETF.
  - lynx23 2y ago
    In genera, "self reporting" needs to be viewed as the untrustworthy statistics it is. I hear it a lot recently in the social siences. And media happily parrotting the results, as proof of whatever they are currently trying to push. I wonder how much of these self-reported issues would be seen in a completely different lens if those asked were forced to discuss their answers within a certain peer group. "What, you say you're poor, with that car and that house?"
    - fuzzfactor 2y ago
      Also consider that some of the respondents are actually "bragging" about living paycheck-to-paycheck so they don't seem any poorer than anybody else, when they are actually not even sustainable and deeply know they are heading downward toward bankruptcy or something like that unless things look up.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    > A tiny, tiny percentage of Americans would literally go hungry if they didn't get their next month's paycheck "71.93% of Americans Living Paycheck to Paycheck Have $2,000 or Less in Savings"[0]. So no, it's not a tiny percentage. $2k or less in savings means being one emergency expense away from not being able to pay rent or your house loan next month. - [0]: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-paycheck-statistics-2024/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-pa...
    - Sankozi 2y ago
      This only shows how big economic illiteracy is. Not how much people are earning vs the cost of living.
TechDebtDevin 2y ago
Why not both? The author hasn't given any indication that the equity given to employees is subsidizing their wage.. It seems like yourself and others are just arguing against a company providing bonus compensation to workers for their work. Peasent brain has grown far and wide these days. Keep slaving away for less compensation, I'd rather not.
- eru 2y ago
  They can give a cash bonus just as well. There's two questions: how much comp to pay, and how to divide that comp between various forms. They are nearly independent of each other.
dclowd9901 2y ago
Notably this is how we’ve been doing things and… notably, the chasm of pay is growing wider all the time. So maybe time to re-evaluate the status quo?
swagasaurus-rex 2y ago
Shares of the company they work for would incentivize them to care about the company. Shares of other public companies means no skin in the game. A day trader cash out whenever they want and wipe their hands clean of any adverse effects made by the company in the name of growth.
- eru 2y ago
  The day trader needs to find a greater fool for that to work. Shares prices already reflect an estimate of the long running fate of the company.
- konschubert 2y ago
  It's true, which is why I think it's good to make shares part of the compensation. That being said, employees already have skin in the game because they want their company to survive so they keep their job. When a company goes belly up, employees with shares are worse off than those that bought shares in other companies instead.
  - lolc 2y ago
    The reason I own shares of my company is that I want to have a say in where it goes. Profit sharing is a nice side effect.
lynx23 2y ago
Nah, that would be a crazy idea... :-( In general, this article leaves a taste of communism in my mouth. I already said elsewhere, pay me fairly or go away.

ossobuco 2y ago

How does that work when 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck? When you're not sure if you'll manage to pay the electricity bills to keep your fridge turned on, is your first thought going to be "let's invest in the market!"?

TechDebtDevin 2y ago
Peasent brain, they think they too can be rich like their corporate owners one day so they will support them and justify this brain rotted thinking until they die poor.
eru 2y ago
Interpreted charitably, you are making an argument that people's comp should be higher. But I don't see any argument that paying that higher comp in the form of shares instead of in the form of cash is any better? (Unless you want to imply that people are too dumb and need to be protected from themselves, and that why we need to give them more stocks instead of more cash? Or something else?)
- ossobuco 2y ago
  > Interpreted charitably No need for your charity, thanks. I'm simply making the argument that you must live in a bubble if you think that enough people have the excess liquidity and market knowledge for this to be an applicable solution to the general population. > Unless you want to imply that people are too dumb and need to be protected from themselves Not being wise in the markets != being dumb. Protected from themselves? No, protected from speculators and exploiters.
  - eru 2y ago
    Nudging people to own a substantial chunk of their net worth in one single company protects them from speculators and exploiters? OK..
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      When the alternative is owning no chunk of any company? Yes, still orders of magnitude better. Nothing prevents people from investing also in other companies if they feel like. Or are you implying they are "too dumb" to consider the possibility? Shared ownership also protects employees from speculative decisions like mass layoffs made only to give more value to shareholders. It also prevents the alienation of working on something you don't own and gives a strong incentive for everyone to give their best.
      - its_ethan 2y ago
        > Nothing prevents people from investing also in other companies if they feel like I thought you just said that this isn't a viable option for most people? Now it is on the table? > are you implying they are "too dumb" to consider the possibility For what it's worth, reading through this thread, it seems like you were the one who claimed most people don't have "market knowledge"...
        ossobuco 2y ago
        Oh please, you don't even know anymore what's your argument, do you? You just hate to be reminded that the bubble you live in is in now way accurately reflective of the reality most people live in.
        its_ethan 2y ago
        I am not the person you were arguing with, so sure maybe I don't know what the other guys argument is lol I was just commenting on what I was seeing in your comments - sorry that I struck a nerve.. I'm not sure what bubble you think I'm living in, given how little you know about me. But in "your bubble" it doesn't seem like there's a way to reconcile two very antithetical propositions: 1- people don't have the resources/knowledge to invest, but also 2- they can use their excess resources to diversify away from having significant investment with solely their employer. How does that work? And just to re-iterate, no one besides you has brought up the intelligence of "most people" when it comes to the ability to invest. So...?
- fuzzfactor 2y ago
  >you are making an argument that people's comp should be higher. That's a good argument to make. Among the entire workforce of a successful employee-owned org, I would think there would be no disagreement, IOW nothing to argue about. It surely depends how successful, but all you need is to do the math to know for sure. Beyond a certain threshold, companies where most of the workers are living paycheck-to-paycheck can end up paying them more and that bugaboo can go away completely. Whether or not they are actually awarded or entitled to any shares in their employer yet. Even during a time when it's just the rest of the employees owning the company. What good are shares if you're never going to sell? I mean never sell your shares nor (vote to) sell the company. The only thing shares like that entitle you to is dividends. And you only get dividends when the company makes enough money to declare a dividend. Over and above any shortcomings that might need to be overcome. The net difference is that distributions that go to outside investors under the more-familiar arrangement, are instead returned only to employees when they are the only shareholders. And sometimes that could be a very life-changing difference for doing the exact same work. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That's why you do the math.
nitwit005 2y ago
I presume it'll work exactly as well as paying them partially in stock, as the stock and cash are interchangeable. The people who need money now will just sell the stock as soon as they can.
konschubert 2y ago
If they are really living paycheck to paycheck, giving them shares in the company instead of paying them isn't going to help much either. Or are you suggesting that employees just get a fixed share when they join the company? That model exists, but it typically only works for companies that need no outside capital to get started. Like law firms.
lennixm 2y ago
People need to stop using this stat. It's completely useless. There are literally people making top percentile incomes saying they're living paycheck to paycheck in these surveys because they interpret the survey questions wildly different than other people. A tiny, tiny percentage of Americans would literally go hungry if they didn't get their next month's paycheck the rest would have to cash out some small percentage of their S&P 500 ETF.
- lynx23 2y ago
  In genera, "self reporting" needs to be viewed as the untrustworthy statistics it is. I hear it a lot recently in the social siences. And media happily parrotting the results, as proof of whatever they are currently trying to push. I wonder how much of these self-reported issues would be seen in a completely different lens if those asked were forced to discuss their answers within a certain peer group. "What, you say you're poor, with that car and that house?"
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    Also consider that some of the respondents are actually "bragging" about living paycheck-to-paycheck so they don't seem any poorer than anybody else, when they are actually not even sustainable and deeply know they are heading downward toward bankruptcy or something like that unless things look up.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  > A tiny, tiny percentage of Americans would literally go hungry if they didn't get their next month's paycheck "71.93% of Americans Living Paycheck to Paycheck Have $2,000 or Less in Savings"[0]. So no, it's not a tiny percentage. $2k or less in savings means being one emergency expense away from not being able to pay rent or your house loan next month. - [0]: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-paycheck-statistics-2024/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-pa...
  - Sankozi 2y ago
    This only shows how big economic illiteracy is. Not how much people are earning vs the cost of living.

TechDebtDevin 2y ago

Why not both? The author hasn't given any indication that the equity given to employees is subsidizing their wage.. It seems like yourself and others are just arguing against a company providing bonus compensation to workers for their work. Peasent brain has grown far and wide these days. Keep slaving away for less compensation, I'd rather not.

eru 2y ago
They can give a cash bonus just as well. There's two questions: how much comp to pay, and how to divide that comp between various forms. They are nearly independent of each other.

dclowd9901 2y ago

Notably this is how we’ve been doing things and… notably, the chasm of pay is growing wider all the time. So maybe time to re-evaluate the status quo?

swagasaurus-rex 2y ago

Shares of the company they work for would incentivize them to care about the company. Shares of other public companies means no skin in the game. A day trader cash out whenever they want and wipe their hands clean of any adverse effects made by the company in the name of growth.

eru 2y ago
The day trader needs to find a greater fool for that to work. Shares prices already reflect an estimate of the long running fate of the company.
konschubert 2y ago
It's true, which is why I think it's good to make shares part of the compensation. That being said, employees already have skin in the game because they want their company to survive so they keep their job. When a company goes belly up, employees with shares are worse off than those that bought shares in other companies instead.
- lolc 2y ago
  The reason I own shares of my company is that I want to have a say in where it goes. Profit sharing is a nice side effect.

lynx23 2y ago

Nah, that would be a crazy idea... :-( In general, this article leaves a taste of communism in my mouth. I already said elsewhere, pay me fairly or go away.