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Both can be right in their own way. I'm not saying we should get rid of our welfare. I'm just saying our people are missing the point. It's incredible privilege

Both can be right in their own way. I'm not saying we should get rid of our welfare. I'm just saying our people are missing the point. It's incredible privilege to live here. You think they would get the same welfare in the US, in China, Ghana or Russia? Think again. They should be grateful is what I'm saying.

littlestymaar 2y ago
No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work, which I'm arguing against. You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. Now I agree with you that even though their live is still tough, they are still very lucky to live in Germany as opposed to many other places on earth. But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost.
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  > No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work Well you‘re free to quote me on that. I haven‘t been saying this at all. > which I'm arguing against. No, you’re arguing for falsehoods. Posters here are stating that things that are covered aren‘t and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue. > You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. I haven‘t. Again, please do quote me. > But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost. No, the topic was that you (among others) think people on Bürgergeld starve, are in dire need of heating and live in depressed states for lack of funding. These are lies. You‘re lying. I’ve no idea why.
  - onli 2y ago
    Given the full thread, you claimed both things here: >> It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld. > Oh wow, the exact thing people have been saying would happen has happened. Turn's out Quasi-UBI is a drain on tax paying citizens after all. Amazing.
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      The first one is not my statement, but a direct quote from the top poster. The second comment makes no statement about it being free and easy. Just that UBI money is being largely spent on leisure activities. It also is a drain on taxes. Nowhere there do I talk about easiness or inflation - at all. On the contrary, you‘ve been alerted of your easily disproven statements multiple times in this thread and not just by me. Let‘s keep being civil about this though.
  - onli 2y ago
    And here an example of someone starving because Hartz IV being cut: https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article818850/Hartz-IV-Empfaenger-stirbt-an-Unterernaehrung.html https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article818850/Hartz-IV-Empfa... Yes, that's not a common case, but it happens. Here an article about 5.5 million Germans not being able to pay for heating: https://www.deutschlandfunknova.de/beitrag/armut-5-5-millionen-menschen-haben-zu-wenig-geld-zum-heizen https://www.deutschlandfunknova.de/beitrag/armut-5-5-million...
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      You‘re really going to make your point with an Article from 2007 of a mentally ill man that didn‘t even answer his letters from the Arbeitsamt? He didn‘t even apply for aid. Also, you never have to go hungry in Germany. Anyone can go to a Suppenküche and get meals for free. Your other article is from 2022, the middle of the Ukraine war which caused an incredible explosion in heating costs. There is no mention of welfare there. Even then, if you actually read the stats behind it, Germany was still in the top 3 EU wide by a far margin. Also, as per the Statistisches Bundesamt, the people polled gave self assessed answers in these polls. There is no information to be found on the severity or degree of how many funds they were lacking, or even what „enough heating“ is supposed to mean. Bit disappointing to be honest. These articles do not support your point at all. What even is your point? Are you even German? You‘re discussing from a point of severe misinformation. I really don‘t get your agenda here.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    > Well you‘re free to quote me on that. You're right I mistook you and nkmnz from whom you defended the original argument. > and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue. It's only untrue if you define “abhorrent” as worse as everywhere. But that's not a good criteria because then the entirety of the world population today is affluent by even 1800 standards, and most European people in 1800 were themselves in a very good situation compared to Paleolithic humans. So of course people can survive with much less but that doesn't mean these people are suffering. It's as saying to someone with a missing foot that he's OK since others have lost both legs. People living on social welfare are definitely struggling and only ascetic people would put themselves voluntarily under such a standard of living. And evidently pretty much anyone claiming it's not a harsh life isn't willing to live with so little. > think people on Bürgergeld starve, are in dire need of heating and live in depressed states for lack of funding. Skipping meal is routine, and mental health issues are indeed a problem for those people. You are the one lying to yourself.
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      > It's only untrue if you define “abhorrent” as worse as everywhere > So of course people can survive with much less but that doesn't mean these people are suffering. I‘d argue that as long as you‘re surviving entirely on someone else‘s money without being forced to work, you can argue for my point. Think about this: Never before in history did you have the chance to rely entirely upon the effort of others for your basic human needs. In almost no other country on earth can you survive with most of your needs met just because you happen to live there, even if you‘re not born there. This is insane privilege. > And evidently pretty much anyone claiming it's not a harsh life isn't willing to live with so little Nope, sorry. You‘re saying this from a privileged western perspective. I‘m not comparing humans of the past, I‘m comparing it with the huge majority of people living on earth, right now. A person living on German welfare is so far removed from the average poor Afghan farmer, people in Favelas living in poverty , Ethiopians living under warlord rule or even the average poor person in the US they might as well be royalty. And again, welfare isn‘t supposed to provide an entirely struggle free life. It‘s supposed to have you meet your basic human needs. We give our people so much more than that. Public schooling, free access to public pools, additional housing money in cities, free internet for people on welfare, and a car. It’s delusional if one thinks that‘s still not enough. Skipping meals is not routine, that‘s untrue as well. We have soup kitchens here. I’ve been there myself as a poor student.

littlestymaar 2y ago

No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work, which I'm arguing against. You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. Now I agree with you that even though their live is still tough, they are still very lucky to live in Germany as opposed to many other places on earth. But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost.

selfmodruntime 2y ago
> No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work Well you‘re free to quote me on that. I haven‘t been saying this at all. > which I'm arguing against. No, you’re arguing for falsehoods. Posters here are stating that things that are covered aren‘t and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue. > You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. I haven‘t. Again, please do quote me. > But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost. No, the topic was that you (among others) think people on Bürgergeld starve, are in dire need of heating and live in depressed states for lack of funding. These are lies. You‘re lying. I’ve no idea why.
- onli 2y ago
  Given the full thread, you claimed both things here: >> It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld. > Oh wow, the exact thing people have been saying would happen has happened. Turn's out Quasi-UBI is a drain on tax paying citizens after all. Amazing.
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    The first one is not my statement, but a direct quote from the top poster. The second comment makes no statement about it being free and easy. Just that UBI money is being largely spent on leisure activities. It also is a drain on taxes. Nowhere there do I talk about easiness or inflation - at all. On the contrary, you‘ve been alerted of your easily disproven statements multiple times in this thread and not just by me. Let‘s keep being civil about this though.
- onli 2y ago
  And here an example of someone starving because Hartz IV being cut: https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article818850/Hartz-IV-Empfaenger-stirbt-an-Unterernaehrung.html https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article818850/Hartz-IV-Empfa... Yes, that's not a common case, but it happens. Here an article about 5.5 million Germans not being able to pay for heating: https://www.deutschlandfunknova.de/beitrag/armut-5-5-millionen-menschen-haben-zu-wenig-geld-zum-heizen https://www.deutschlandfunknova.de/beitrag/armut-5-5-million...
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    You‘re really going to make your point with an Article from 2007 of a mentally ill man that didn‘t even answer his letters from the Arbeitsamt? He didn‘t even apply for aid. Also, you never have to go hungry in Germany. Anyone can go to a Suppenküche and get meals for free. Your other article is from 2022, the middle of the Ukraine war which caused an incredible explosion in heating costs. There is no mention of welfare there. Even then, if you actually read the stats behind it, Germany was still in the top 3 EU wide by a far margin. Also, as per the Statistisches Bundesamt, the people polled gave self assessed answers in these polls. There is no information to be found on the severity or degree of how many funds they were lacking, or even what „enough heating“ is supposed to mean. Bit disappointing to be honest. These articles do not support your point at all. What even is your point? Are you even German? You‘re discussing from a point of severe misinformation. I really don‘t get your agenda here.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  > Well you‘re free to quote me on that. You're right I mistook you and nkmnz from whom you defended the original argument. > and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue. It's only untrue if you define “abhorrent” as worse as everywhere. But that's not a good criteria because then the entirety of the world population today is affluent by even 1800 standards, and most European people in 1800 were themselves in a very good situation compared to Paleolithic humans. So of course people can survive with much less but that doesn't mean these people are suffering. It's as saying to someone with a missing foot that he's OK since others have lost both legs. People living on social welfare are definitely struggling and only ascetic people would put themselves voluntarily under such a standard of living. And evidently pretty much anyone claiming it's not a harsh life isn't willing to live with so little. > think people on Bürgergeld starve, are in dire need of heating and live in depressed states for lack of funding. Skipping meal is routine, and mental health issues are indeed a problem for those people. You are the one lying to yourself.
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    > It's only untrue if you define “abhorrent” as worse as everywhere > So of course people can survive with much less but that doesn't mean these people are suffering. I‘d argue that as long as you‘re surviving entirely on someone else‘s money without being forced to work, you can argue for my point. Think about this: Never before in history did you have the chance to rely entirely upon the effort of others for your basic human needs. In almost no other country on earth can you survive with most of your needs met just because you happen to live there, even if you‘re not born there. This is insane privilege. > And evidently pretty much anyone claiming it's not a harsh life isn't willing to live with so little Nope, sorry. You‘re saying this from a privileged western perspective. I‘m not comparing humans of the past, I‘m comparing it with the huge majority of people living on earth, right now. A person living on German welfare is so far removed from the average poor Afghan farmer, people in Favelas living in poverty , Ethiopians living under warlord rule or even the average poor person in the US they might as well be royalty. And again, welfare isn‘t supposed to provide an entirely struggle free life. It‘s supposed to have you meet your basic human needs. We give our people so much more than that. Public schooling, free access to public pools, additional housing money in cities, free internet for people on welfare, and a car. It’s delusional if one thinks that‘s still not enough. Skipping meals is not routine, that‘s untrue as well. We have soup kitchens here. I’ve been there myself as a poor student.