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Humans 1, Chimps 0: Correcting the Record
- jojobas 2y agoCan't express how relieved I am that I am tentatively not inferior to a chimpanzee.
- myrmidon 2y agoWould it really have been so bad to be inferior at such a specific task? Great apes are hard for humans to match in e.g. upper body strength, so we are not strictly superior anyway... I strongly believe that human intellectual superiority will come to an end within a lifetime, will be quite interesting to see how our species deals with it (to be clear: talking about AI there, not apes :P).
- 7thaccount 2y agoYou mean how AI will deal with it. We might not have much say against something significantly smarter than us.
- KineticLensman 2y agoIn one-on-one hand-to-hand combat, an adult male chimp can savagely defeat a baseline human.
- a-french-anon 2y agoIt might be more because of what the baseline (both physical and mental) has become, though.
- bluGill 2y agoBut humans would not get involved in one on one hand to hand combat with a chimp. We would avoid combat, or use tools (likely a gun)
- KineticLensman 2y agoHaving volunteered at an ape rescue centre, I've heard some horrific stories about what happens when a chimp fights a person. Example scenarios include people who keep chimps as pets and zoo keepers who don't close a door correctly. Example injuries to the humans include fingers and other parts being bitten off, or being blinded. A worst case scenario for a zoo involves a group of chimps getting out and then getting frightened, and fighting. Of course a gun will solve this problem, hence my comment about 'baseline'. Perhaps I should have said 'unaugmented'.
- dhosek 2y agoMonkey bite your face off.
- jojobas 2y agoThey are pretty horrible to each other at times too. More or less illustrates the somewhat Hobbesian idea of continual reduction of violence since probably the last common ancestor to today.
- keybored 2y agoRight-wingers compare human nature to chimps; left-wingers to bonobos. What does that tell us about humans? Nothing.
- dhosek 2y agoWhat I find fascinating is the bifurcation of R-rated behaviors between chimps (violence) and bonobos (sex). I read somewhere about a similar bifurcation in species of dolphins or porpoises where there were was one species which would exhibit high levels of violence and another which was all about the sexy fun time, but that was 30 years ago or so I read it and I have little hope of ever recovering that information (assuming it’s even true, which is not guaranteed for popular science reporting).
- jojobas 2y ago
- tetris11 2y agoYes but in one-on-one hand-to-hand tango, I think there'd be an even match
- jojobas 2y agoWell I mean at least intellectually.
- FrustratedMonky 2y agoThank You. It is easy to miss these follow up studies.
- zarzavat 2y agoThis isn't surprising to anyone who has seen videos of "flash anzan". The numbers flash up on the screen and you have to add them up: https://youtu.be/7ktpme4xcoQ https://youtu.be/7ktpme4xcoQ https://youtu.be/_vGMsVirYKs https://youtu.be/_vGMsVirYKs
- bitslayer 2y ago"with even very moderate practice, humans can match Ayumu’s performance." The article is misnamed, the actual score is 1 to 1.
- light_hue_1 2y agoIt's not. Because the chimp got an immense amount of practice. Humans would beat it at this rate.
- bluGill 2y agoNo, it is clear that cheating was involved in getting the Chimps to a score of 1, and thus I refuse to give them that score. (the Chimps didn't cheat, but there was still cheating)
- NeoTar 2y agoFrom the article: > Cook and Wilson (2010b) subsequently trained two university students to a level superior to the chimpanzee. Sounds like humans do in fact win.
- echoangle 2y agoYou think human performance would plateau after moderate practice? Because otherwise, humans would surely win with the same practice as the chimp.
- dommus 2y agoThe chimp got extensive training because he did not attend school. The humans had more than 20 years of training, going through mandatory education and then college. It is not a competition between species. It's a competition between quality training on the one hand and on the other, the notion that some species are somehow born with skills.
- GTP 2y agoNo, here the point is training on that specific task. E. g. the literature classes you took during your education will be irrelevant for such a task.
- lmpdev 2y agoDespite the correction, I still expect to see (perhaps only slight or niche) skills with their corresponding mental attributes which great apes and extinct hominids possess(ed) which outweigh our own An example which springs to mind is the utterly absurd physical traits and likely corresponding hand-eye coordination Homo naledi possessed in order to perform their burial rituals It took world-class climbers risking their lives to even reach the burial chamber, let alone do it repeatedly without modern climbing gear or even light Despite their size and build being advantageous, I do not see how their mental attributes wouldn’t be more conducive to related skills than even trained (but tool-less) Homo sapiens Source: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2023/june/claims-homo-naledi-buried-their-dead-alter-our-understanding-human-evolution.html https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2023/june/claims-homo-na...
- QuesnayJr 2y agoEven the evidence about homo naledi possibly needs correction. Here's a recent preprint that argues that the evidence that homo naledi buried their dead is not there: https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/libraryFiles/downloadPublic/25 https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/libraryFil...
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y agoOne thing that seems certain though is that Homo Naledi was there way deep in the cave, which is saying a lot in of itself.
- lmpdev 2y agoThe fact they could get to that chamber is enough to make my original point though It is unlikely homo sapiens have equal or better neurological attributes for certain domains. In this example Homo naledi likely possessed superior balance and motorskills for the average naledian to be able to make it that deep
- griffzhowl 2y agoSee also this paper by one of the foremost researchers in the field and colleagues for how Berger and his team haven't been rigorous with their methodology with Homo naledi "No scientific evidence that Homo naledi buried their dead and produced rock art" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047248423001434 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...
- franciscop 2y agoOn favour of humans, people have usually seen the numbers thousands to millions of times in their lifetimes, while chimps would have seen them few dozens of times at best. So "training the same time" for humans and chimps is def misleading, would love to see this with an abstract or uncommon characters like Japanese (for a Western audience).
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- autokad 2y agothat would not matter much at all. I can learn a foreign language numbers in a matter of minutes.
- murukesh_s 2y agoThat is because you have basic understanding of numbers. Tribes may not have that.
- franciscop 2y agoMe too, but I still find 4,6,8 a lot easier to read than 四,六,八
- anon24526742 2y ago四,六,八 is "four, six, eight" in English. These are the names of the numbers, not the numbers themselves. In Japanese they write the numbers the same as in English ("4, 6, 8")
- skissane 2y ago> In Japanese they write the numbers the same as in English ("4, 6, 8") Modern Japanese has two numeral systems - Arabic and Chinese. The Arabic numerals were introduced to Japanese relatively recently (only in the modern period). In pre-modern Japanese, only the Chinese numerals existed. In contemporary Japanese, Arabic numerals are more common, but Chinese numerals are still used in some contexts (especially texts written vertically) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals
- aatd86 2y agoLies! Utter lies! Chimp supremacy. Caesar superior. What a wonderful dayyy!!!
- ChoHag 2y ago[dead]
- lupire 2y agoBack in the day, there were lots of websites where you could play the game. You can improve your performance at this game by playing in extremely high contrast, so you can use the retinal afterimage to give you more time to study the numbers. Similar to how that "LSD" video requires you reconstruct persistence of visionsl while watching a too-slow animation of light painting. Such a weird case, since any human could directly objectively test the claim on their own. https://www.novelgames.com/en/ayumu/ https://www.novelgames.com/en/ayumu/
- hiddencost 2y agoLove to see memes with retraction notices.
- breck 2y agoThe period of "closed science", which really took on steam after the extensions of copyright in 1976 and 1998, will be look backed upon as rampant with dishonesty and corruption. If you are in academia and you are not publishing your stuff to the public domain, including your git repo, please take some time to think about this and do what you need to do to pivot.
- trimethylpurine 2y agoTo make any unbiased claim, we'd need results from chimps who've captured live humans. Short of that, I'm fairly certain it was always Humans 1, Chimps 0.
- lelanthran 2y ago> To make any unbiased claim, we'd need results from chimps who've captured live humans. There's a documentary on that, with Mark Wahlberg.
- Joel_Mckay 2y agoI wonder if chimps understand where they are headed after the tests. i.e. the nice room were they play games for treats, or the other room where they get injected with various concoctions for unfathomable reasons. I think humans tend to naively apply our own constructs to describe what we think defines intelligence, but this habit does not necessarily generalize onto other species. As an aside, for similar reasons I'd wager generalized AI will be a surprise event rather than an incremental discovery. Recent studies described Goldfish that can remember certain types of problems beyond a year later. Far beyond what anyone assumed possible for such a simple creature. Some people are unique, as I met one lady that could remember 93 non-sequential digits. While she was not successful academically, it would be unwise to play card games with that person for money. =) Primates belong in their own habitats, and should be left alone unless people have a well defined _necessary_reason_ to exploit them as subjects. Have a great day, =3