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Linux would not be stable if Linus wasn't a constant jerk about code quality. Microsoft would not be an empire if Bill Gates played nice with IBM. Steve Jobs wa

by 1970-01-01 2y ago

Linux would not be stable if Linus wasn't a constant jerk about code quality. Microsoft would not be an empire if Bill Gates played nice with IBM. Steve Jobs was considered to be a massive jerk, yet Apple is one of the most successful tech companies in existence. The list continues with Zuck and Musk. All of the above are confirmed jerks, yet they are also incredibly successful at business.

psunavy03 2y ago
All of the above would have been even more blindingly successful if they hadn't been jerks. You can be insistent, you can be stubborn, and you can be sure you're right all without being a prick about it. This is still a bug, not a feature. These people all handicapped themselves from even greater success.
- ttoinou 2y ago
  Then please explain to us how you can achieve the same goals while spending ton of time taking care of others' people feelings. I don't think it works so easily
  - psunavy03 2y ago
    And here we go with the toxic false dichotomy that you have to "spend a ton of time taking care of others' people feelings" to just . . . not be a jerk. It takes literally no time at all to just not be a jerk.
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      It takes some time, some effort, and some thought, especially if that is your current default way of interacting with people. Not a ton, though. But not zero, either.
HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
I don't believe that anyone has ever said that jerks can't be successful. But it's not a necessary condition, either. The world has far more unsuccessful jerks than successful ones.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  > The world has far more unsuccessful jerks than successful ones. That's not a very useful metric. Now, if the proportion of successful jerks vs non-successful jerks were much lower than that of successful nice people vs. non-successful ones, that might be interesting to look at as a starting point. That said, what does "successful" even mean, and why is it something worth pursuing?
TonyAlicea10 2y ago
I thought someone would mention this. I believe these are the exceptions, not the rule. They just get the press. Far, far more people fail because of those same qualities.
JoshTriplett 2y ago
> Linux would not be stable if Linus wasn't a constant jerk about code quality You can enforce quality standards without being a jerk. There are many, many projects doing so.
- artyom 2y ago
  You can but often at the cost of speed and simplicity, or incurring into excessive bureaucracy. I agree with the original comment, Linux won't be anywhere close to what's today without Linus attitude, no matter how "great" other methods of ensuring quality sound on paper.
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    > You can but often at the cost of speed and simplicity On the contrary, it takes extra time to go out of your way to curse someone out and question their parentage, rather than just telling them what's wrong with their code. It seems like you're imagining a straw maintainer being obsequious, rather than just not being a jerk.
    - artyom 2y ago
      I didn't say that every interaction was stellar either. But Linux means big money, it's not just "wrong code" but corporate interest attempting to get their way into the kernel (plenty of examples in the .org mailing list), or HW manufactures trying to get support for their stuff for free, etc. It's not as naive as "code quality".
      - JoshTriplett 2y ago
        And again, you can tell people that what they're doing is not acceptable or that they're not going to get what they're asking for, without being a jerk, and without taking extra time. There are literally zero interactions between maintainers and developers that can be improved by being a jerk.
  - gwbas1c 2y ago
gwbas1c 2y ago
There's a difference between being a jerk and having high standards. Unfortunately, far too many people think having high standards is an excuse for being a jerk.

psunavy03 2y ago

All of the above would have been even more blindingly successful if they hadn't been jerks. You can be insistent, you can be stubborn, and you can be sure you're right all without being a prick about it. This is still a bug, not a feature. These people all handicapped themselves from even greater success.

ttoinou 2y ago
Then please explain to us how you can achieve the same goals while spending ton of time taking care of others' people feelings. I don't think it works so easily
- psunavy03 2y ago
  And here we go with the toxic false dichotomy that you have to "spend a ton of time taking care of others' people feelings" to just . . . not be a jerk. It takes literally no time at all to just not be a jerk.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    It takes some time, some effort, and some thought, especially if that is your current default way of interacting with people. Not a ton, though. But not zero, either.

HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago

I don't believe that anyone has ever said that jerks can't be successful. But it's not a necessary condition, either. The world has far more unsuccessful jerks than successful ones.

cassianoleal 2y ago
> The world has far more unsuccessful jerks than successful ones. That's not a very useful metric. Now, if the proportion of successful jerks vs non-successful jerks were much lower than that of successful nice people vs. non-successful ones, that might be interesting to look at as a starting point. That said, what does "successful" even mean, and why is it something worth pursuing?

TonyAlicea10 2y ago

I thought someone would mention this. I believe these are the exceptions, not the rule. They just get the press. Far, far more people fail because of those same qualities.

JoshTriplett 2y ago

> Linux would not be stable if Linus wasn't a constant jerk about code quality You can enforce quality standards without being a jerk. There are many, many projects doing so.

artyom 2y ago
You can but often at the cost of speed and simplicity, or incurring into excessive bureaucracy. I agree with the original comment, Linux won't be anywhere close to what's today without Linus attitude, no matter how "great" other methods of ensuring quality sound on paper.
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  > You can but often at the cost of speed and simplicity On the contrary, it takes extra time to go out of your way to curse someone out and question their parentage, rather than just telling them what's wrong with their code. It seems like you're imagining a straw maintainer being obsequious, rather than just not being a jerk.
  - artyom 2y ago
    I didn't say that every interaction was stellar either. But Linux means big money, it's not just "wrong code" but corporate interest attempting to get their way into the kernel (plenty of examples in the .org mailing list), or HW manufactures trying to get support for their stuff for free, etc. It's not as naive as "code quality".
    - JoshTriplett 2y ago
      And again, you can tell people that what they're doing is not acceptable or that they're not going to get what they're asking for, without being a jerk, and without taking extra time. There are literally zero interactions between maintainers and developers that can be improved by being a jerk.
- gwbas1c 2y ago

gwbas1c 2y ago

There's a difference between being a jerk and having high standards. Unfortunately, far too many people think having high standards is an excuse for being a jerk.