4 ms·

I agree with everything, but can't help noticing that this kind of take becomes immediately invalid when the jerks in question are (or says they are) neurodiver

I agree with everything, but can't help noticing that this kind of take becomes immediately invalid when the jerks in question are (or says they are) neurodivergent. How much does autism play into being a "genius jerk"? Should a special exception be made in that case?

TonyAlicea10 2y ago
In the post I referenced that I wasn't trying to say that communication differences mean someone is a jerk. Intentional, obnoxious, aggressive and choosing not to change even though they are aware of it is how I define a 'jerk' here. If someone has a challenge in awareness or their communication style is related to neurodivergence, then I think it becomes a determination of the team as far as what guardrails, training, awareness, tolerance, etc. are needed.
- curtisblaine 2y ago
  But maybe "jerk-ism" in general can be defined as a challenge in evaluating the emotional response of others? Isn't low emotional intelligence itself a neurodivergence or at least, in most cases, a consequence of a broader neurodivergence?
mikepurvis 2y ago
In theory it would be the role of management to create the conditions for a ND individual to do their best work and not be difficult to work with. However, like everything else, skill levels in that department vary widely and are profoundly hard to evaluate. I know for myself (moderately ADHD), I become more of a jerk when I'm not getting the supports that I need, and I know the answer is to simply remove myself from those situations when it's a repeated occurrence. But usually there are other factors at play, such as me having become personally invested in the success of a project.
JohnMakin 2y ago
> How much does autism play into being a "genius jerk"? Should a special exception be made in that case? The OP defines smart jerk in a way that would rule out most people with ASD - by their definition, a "smart jerk" is aware their behavior is obnoxious and aggressive. Usually people on the spectrum are not aware of their own behavior's effects on others, and usually attempt to correct the behavior when they learn about it, so I would think this is not a very big factor. Low emotional intelligence seems a far likelier culprit, and personality disorders.
- curtisblaine 2y ago
  > Usually people on the spectrum are not aware of their own behavior's effects on others That sounds exaggerated at best. People on the spectrum might not be emotionally aware of their behaviours effect on others, but they're intellectually / logically aware of it. > by their definition, a "smart jerk" is aware their behavior is obnoxious and aggressive. Does intentionality change anything? Working with a "jerk" is a terrible experience whether the jerk consciously decides to be a jerk or he/she can't help it / can't tell.
  - JohnMakin 2y ago
    > That sounds exaggerated at best. People on the spectrum might not be emotionally aware of their behaviours effect on others, but they're intellectually / logically aware of it. Based on my own extensive experience of living on the spectrum and years of participating in support groups, I would say this is absolutely untrue or at best extremely pedantic - the end effect is the same.
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      GP clearly fails the empathy test when the subject has a different neurological matrix to their own. I wonder if with this, they will attempt to correct that effect now that they've been made aware of it. Edit: given the downvote, I assume not.
  - Yawrehto 2y ago
    > intellectually/logically aware of it Are we? Patterns are always inherently vague. The sequence '3,5,7,_' is a clear example, but even something clear-cut, like '1,2,4,8,16,_' could end in any number; it's possible for it to be the sequence 'Joe's favorite numbers, by year', the next number being 3, as for it to be, say, powers of two. As such, it's possible that behavior others interpret as 'jerky' is an autistic person seeing pattern A in the data where everyone else sees pattern B.[1] >Does intentionality change anything? One would think so. If someone is unintentionally behaving like a jerk, that can be changed in theory by informing them, kindly, of that. If someone is intentionally behaving like a jerk, good luck with that. (Besides, if it doesn't, manslaughter and murder are indistinguishable, and one would think there is a difference between a carefully planned and calculated murder and you getting killed after a driver accidentally hits you.) [1] This idea stolen from a paper I read, "Living With Autism: Quus-ing in a Plus-ers World". The author uploaded a preprint to Dropbox, which sadly seems to be the only copy available if you don't subscribe to the journal Res Philosophica: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0skr5orj9l1ra4n4p85li/Living-with-Autism-Quus-ing-in-a-Plus-ers-World.pdf?rlkey=kzz3vxqy5cbixxpmox16hzyaj&e=2&dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0skr5orj9l1ra4n4p85li/Living-....
ravenstine 2y ago
What makes you wonder if it should? They are both personality traits, more or less. Aren't autistic people just as responsible for their behavior as a jerk that has no diagnosis for their behavior? If anything, a diagnosis makes autists at least as responsible given that their behavior is more explainable and has management strategies.
- curtisblaine 2y ago
  I agree with that. I just was noticing that the article takes the easy route (bashing jerks that are maliciously jerks) but accurately avoids the hard problem (jerks that are jerks because they are neurologically atypical).

TonyAlicea10 2y ago

In the post I referenced that I wasn't trying to say that communication differences mean someone is a jerk. Intentional, obnoxious, aggressive and choosing not to change even though they are aware of it is how I define a 'jerk' here. If someone has a challenge in awareness or their communication style is related to neurodivergence, then I think it becomes a determination of the team as far as what guardrails, training, awareness, tolerance, etc. are needed.

curtisblaine 2y ago
But maybe "jerk-ism" in general can be defined as a challenge in evaluating the emotional response of others? Isn't low emotional intelligence itself a neurodivergence or at least, in most cases, a consequence of a broader neurodivergence?

mikepurvis 2y ago

In theory it would be the role of management to create the conditions for a ND individual to do their best work and not be difficult to work with. However, like everything else, skill levels in that department vary widely and are profoundly hard to evaluate. I know for myself (moderately ADHD), I become more of a jerk when I'm not getting the supports that I need, and I know the answer is to simply remove myself from those situations when it's a repeated occurrence. But usually there are other factors at play, such as me having become personally invested in the success of a project.

JohnMakin 2y ago

> How much does autism play into being a "genius jerk"? Should a special exception be made in that case? The OP defines smart jerk in a way that would rule out most people with ASD - by their definition, a "smart jerk" is aware their behavior is obnoxious and aggressive. Usually people on the spectrum are not aware of their own behavior's effects on others, and usually attempt to correct the behavior when they learn about it, so I would think this is not a very big factor. Low emotional intelligence seems a far likelier culprit, and personality disorders.

curtisblaine 2y ago
> Usually people on the spectrum are not aware of their own behavior's effects on others That sounds exaggerated at best. People on the spectrum might not be emotionally aware of their behaviours effect on others, but they're intellectually / logically aware of it. > by their definition, a "smart jerk" is aware their behavior is obnoxious and aggressive. Does intentionality change anything? Working with a "jerk" is a terrible experience whether the jerk consciously decides to be a jerk or he/she can't help it / can't tell.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  > That sounds exaggerated at best. People on the spectrum might not be emotionally aware of their behaviours effect on others, but they're intellectually / logically aware of it. Based on my own extensive experience of living on the spectrum and years of participating in support groups, I would say this is absolutely untrue or at best extremely pedantic - the end effect is the same.
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    GP clearly fails the empathy test when the subject has a different neurological matrix to their own. I wonder if with this, they will attempt to correct that effect now that they've been made aware of it. Edit: given the downvote, I assume not.
- Yawrehto 2y ago
  > intellectually/logically aware of it Are we? Patterns are always inherently vague. The sequence '3,5,7,_' is a clear example, but even something clear-cut, like '1,2,4,8,16,_' could end in any number; it's possible for it to be the sequence 'Joe's favorite numbers, by year', the next number being 3, as for it to be, say, powers of two. As such, it's possible that behavior others interpret as 'jerky' is an autistic person seeing pattern A in the data where everyone else sees pattern B.[1] >Does intentionality change anything? One would think so. If someone is unintentionally behaving like a jerk, that can be changed in theory by informing them, kindly, of that. If someone is intentionally behaving like a jerk, good luck with that. (Besides, if it doesn't, manslaughter and murder are indistinguishable, and one would think there is a difference between a carefully planned and calculated murder and you getting killed after a driver accidentally hits you.) [1] This idea stolen from a paper I read, "Living With Autism: Quus-ing in a Plus-ers World". The author uploaded a preprint to Dropbox, which sadly seems to be the only copy available if you don't subscribe to the journal Res Philosophica: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0skr5orj9l1ra4n4p85li/Living-with-Autism-Quus-ing-in-a-Plus-ers-World.pdf?rlkey=kzz3vxqy5cbixxpmox16hzyaj&e=2&dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0skr5orj9l1ra4n4p85li/Living-....

ravenstine 2y ago

What makes you wonder if it should? They are both personality traits, more or less. Aren't autistic people just as responsible for their behavior as a jerk that has no diagnosis for their behavior? If anything, a diagnosis makes autists at least as responsible given that their behavior is more explainable and has management strategies.

curtisblaine 2y ago
I agree with that. I just was noticing that the article takes the easy route (bashing jerks that are maliciously jerks) but accurately avoids the hard problem (jerks that are jerks because they are neurologically atypical).