17 ms·

I would actually encourage you to zoom out 1 or 2 levels, and instead of focusing on the "how to get better at 'sucking up'" problem, I would instead coach you

I would actually encourage you to zoom out 1 or 2 levels, and instead of focusing on the "how to get better at 'sucking up'" problem, I would instead coach you to think about why you chose to apply this specific mental model to your career, and why this form of "black-and-white" thinking might be hurting you even more (as a general theme, where "suck up" is just one specific example). I am 99.9% certain that, the overall trajectory of your career is not hinging on something as specific as "if only I learned how to 'suck up' then everything would be great". This is actually a form of magical thinking, of making excuses to avoid engaging with the real problems, and instead just lumping everything into a single excuse as to why ____ didn't work out. The fact that you mention "too much pride, introversion, embarrassment" is also a clue to me that you might be someone with very rigid patterns of thought, and therefore likely to fall victim to black-and-white thinking (that something is all-good or all-bad, that something can ascribed to 1 single root cause to blame, etc.). Some off-the-cuff ideas/questions, not all of them may be applicable to you, but hopefully it triggers some introspection on your part: - Do you often think thoughts like, "I know I am right, everyone else is wrong, why can't they just appreciate my genius"? - Is there anyone that you actually respect in your team/your org? Have you ever tried to ask them, "how did you get to where you are?" Do they mention "sucking up" as a big ingredient? - When was the last time you asked someone to help you with something? Did you phrase it as a demand or threat? Or did you seek some kind of mutually beneficial win-win outcome? - When was the last time you admitted to making a mistake? - When was the last time you let someone else convince you to change your mind about something?

apwell23 2y ago
I came across an interesting stat "90% of Fortune 500 CEOs play golf and over 80% of executives say that golf played an important role in their career" What do you make of this.
- strgcmc 2y ago
  Well, are you an executive, or one step from becoming one? Then it's entirely possible that spending more time socializing recreationally can directly help your career. Golf happens to be a common choice, but maybe your exec team likes rock climbing or playing video games... just depends on the company or the social group. Also, whether you are an executive or middle-manager or an IC, overall I don't doubt that socializing and networking and investing in good relationships, is helpful to one's career, but to differing degrees (i.e. for execs = a lot, for middle-managers = a medium amount, for line-level tech ICs = a much lesser amount). And building relationships or earning trust by spending time together != "sucking up". Just the implication that you associate "golf" with "sucking up" apparently, shows that you likely have an inherently antagonistic view of personal relationships. For any given group of people, either they truly like playing golf, or golf just happens to be a convenient activity that allows for lots of downtime, and therefore encourages discussion/communication to happen, either way it's very likely that they are getting together for reasons other than "sucking up". Why do you assume that what happens on the golf course is inherently or inevitably about "sucking up"? Have you never encountered a group of people, getting together for some event (recreational or otherwise), where they just communicate on equal footing, or debate ideas together, but with no one being fawned over or worshipped?
  - apwell23 2y ago
    i think you are getting too carried away by that phrase. I dont have any moral qualms about "sucking up". i adressed this here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41061026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41061026 I presonally think "sucking up" is a better phrase because you "build relationships" with your peers and equals not with someone who can take food away from your family table just because they don't like you. What kind of relationship is that where you are always inferior.
    - strgcmc 2y ago
      Well, if this is how you think, then I am afraid no useful advice is going to penetrate your preconceived notions of inferiority. It is actually possible, and happens every day at every company, that meaningful relationships exist across managerial lines or levels of seniority; it is simply an existence proof because it exists all around you. But if you are someone who rejects the evidence in front of your eyes, or feels like you are too unique/special that "normal advice" doesn't apply to you somehow, then I am sorry but you are stuck until you address these deep-seated issues about inferiority and viewing everything through a lens of enmity. FWIW, I actually personally hold two conflicting beliefs at the same time: I distrust capitalism and dislike the distribution of power between the capital-owning class and the working class in society, but I also understand and appreciate and respect the amoral ruthless effectiveness of capitalism. So, I can emphasize to some degree about the moral unfairness of an amoral corporation holding your livelihood over your head, but I can also build real relationships based on human connection, while compartmentalizing the human part away from the structural imbalance of capitalism part.
      - apwell23 2y ago
        Inferior is not a "feeling". You are in a inferior position to your boss, thats why they are call your "superior" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior "one who is above another in rank, station, or office" I am not sure why you are hung up on words anyways. I have a feeling you might be trolling me for fun.

apwell23 2y ago

I came across an interesting stat "90% of Fortune 500 CEOs play golf and over 80% of executives say that golf played an important role in their career" What do you make of this.

strgcmc 2y ago
Well, are you an executive, or one step from becoming one? Then it's entirely possible that spending more time socializing recreationally can directly help your career. Golf happens to be a common choice, but maybe your exec team likes rock climbing or playing video games... just depends on the company or the social group. Also, whether you are an executive or middle-manager or an IC, overall I don't doubt that socializing and networking and investing in good relationships, is helpful to one's career, but to differing degrees (i.e. for execs = a lot, for middle-managers = a medium amount, for line-level tech ICs = a much lesser amount). And building relationships or earning trust by spending time together != "sucking up". Just the implication that you associate "golf" with "sucking up" apparently, shows that you likely have an inherently antagonistic view of personal relationships. For any given group of people, either they truly like playing golf, or golf just happens to be a convenient activity that allows for lots of downtime, and therefore encourages discussion/communication to happen, either way it's very likely that they are getting together for reasons other than "sucking up". Why do you assume that what happens on the golf course is inherently or inevitably about "sucking up"? Have you never encountered a group of people, getting together for some event (recreational or otherwise), where they just communicate on equal footing, or debate ideas together, but with no one being fawned over or worshipped?
- apwell23 2y ago
  i think you are getting too carried away by that phrase. I dont have any moral qualms about "sucking up". i adressed this here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41061026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41061026 I presonally think "sucking up" is a better phrase because you "build relationships" with your peers and equals not with someone who can take food away from your family table just because they don't like you. What kind of relationship is that where you are always inferior.
  - strgcmc 2y ago
    Well, if this is how you think, then I am afraid no useful advice is going to penetrate your preconceived notions of inferiority. It is actually possible, and happens every day at every company, that meaningful relationships exist across managerial lines or levels of seniority; it is simply an existence proof because it exists all around you. But if you are someone who rejects the evidence in front of your eyes, or feels like you are too unique/special that "normal advice" doesn't apply to you somehow, then I am sorry but you are stuck until you address these deep-seated issues about inferiority and viewing everything through a lens of enmity. FWIW, I actually personally hold two conflicting beliefs at the same time: I distrust capitalism and dislike the distribution of power between the capital-owning class and the working class in society, but I also understand and appreciate and respect the amoral ruthless effectiveness of capitalism. So, I can emphasize to some degree about the moral unfairness of an amoral corporation holding your livelihood over your head, but I can also build real relationships based on human connection, while compartmentalizing the human part away from the structural imbalance of capitalism part.
    - apwell23 2y ago
      Inferior is not a "feeling". You are in a inferior position to your boss, thats why they are call your "superior" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superior "one who is above another in rank, station, or office" I am not sure why you are hung up on words anyways. I have a feeling you might be trolling me for fun.