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Tangential. i have too much pride, introversion and embarrassment to 'suck up'. This has greatly hindered my career ( and my earnings). I know what the sucking

Tangential. i have too much pride, introversion and embarrassment to 'suck up'. This has greatly hindered my career ( and my earnings). I know what the sucking up process is and how to execute it but have psychological block actually doing it. Any advice from ppl who've dealt with this?

teaearlgraycold 2y ago
Find a working environment that is less dependent on sucking up.
chairmansteve 2y ago
Start your own business.
- Joel_Mckay 2y ago
  This is the best advice, and the logical choice if you want to run things in your own way. One could fight the inertia of a large firm, or simply create an entity that better aligns with your own values and customer needs. A tax strategy driven small business teaches people how to manage projects, and see the stupid manager/worker BS for what it is... no PMP or Phd required... =3
  - nohuck13 2y ago
    Can you elaborate? What is a tax strategy driven small business?
    - Joel_Mckay 2y ago
      Essentially, one mitigates the financial risks through tax credits, grants, and labor subsidy programs. i.e. the initial cash burn is money you would have paid in taxes anyway, or simply not purely your own capital. YMMV depending where you live, and your groups financial situation. You would be mistaken if you think only "small" firms operate this way... =)
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Then you have to suck up to clients/customers. And they're often way more demanding and irrational than managers in a company.
  - Joel_Mckay 2y ago
    The ex-servicemen I hired used to bug me about taking customer abuse in meetings... I pointed out we bill by the hour, and if someone wants to sit there irrationally ranting at people to work though their solution... so be it... lol =3
  - galdosdi 2y ago
    At least there's N instead of 1 of them, so any given asshole's relative importance is only 1/N to keeping your "job"
tracker1 2y ago
There's a difference between "sucking up" and being polite/courteous and respectful. For me, arrogance has always been a bit of a trigger. I can work with most people, but when someone is both arrogant and less than competent it irks me to no end. My advice is try to always assume the best possible interpretation of any given person's motives in a workplace. Try to be friendly.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  > arrogance has always been a bit of a trigger. I can work with most people, but when someone is both arrogant and less than competent it irks me to no end I think this is a common trigger for a lot of technically inclined people, myself included. In those cases I generally try to focus on acceptable outcomes more than "being right". And, importantly, not focussing as much on proving the other guy wrong (which is not quite the same as proving yourself right). Having a track record of delivery without being seen as the sore thumbs that sticks out goes a long way.
  - Joel_Mckay 2y ago
    There are different management styles, and each have their own trade-offs. Some people don't see the big picture, and get mired in personal conflicts. Generally, when it is your budgets being spent on payroll the perspectives on jerky behavior shifts a little. =3
- chasd00 2y ago
  I have zero tolerance for an arrogant manager/Sr. X dressing down a more junior resource willing and eager to learn and get better. I have a reputation for patience, compassion, and a calming effect on clients and team except in this case. I could probably handle it better but one thing about putting someone on a cross for all to see is they're on a cross for all to see.
- apwell23 2y ago
  > Try to be friendly. I am already friendly. I am not convinced that merely being friendly will get you to your VPs 'inner circle'.
the_snooze 2y ago
The trap is thinking that management is about "sucking up" or "playing a game." The way I run my team is entirely in line with my personality and values. There's no fakery at all. In a way, that's the key: you need to be in an environment where you can operate in a way that works for you and delivers value to the organization. I'm very explicit to my higher-ups about what I'm optimizing for, and that if there's a day when my organization no longer values that, I'll step back from this management role.
strgcmc 2y ago
I would actually encourage you to zoom out 1 or 2 levels, and instead of focusing on the "how to get better at 'sucking up'" problem, I would instead coach you to think about why you chose to apply this specific mental model to your career, and why this form of "black-and-white" thinking might be hurting you even more (as a general theme, where "suck up" is just one specific example). I am 99.9% certain that, the overall trajectory of your career is not hinging on something as specific as "if only I learned how to 'suck up' then everything would be great". This is actually a form of magical thinking, of making excuses to avoid engaging with the real problems, and instead just lumping everything into a single excuse as to why ____ didn't work out. The fact that you mention "too much pride, introversion, embarrassment" is also a clue to me that you might be someone with very rigid patterns of thought, and therefore likely to fall victim to black-and-white thinking (that something is all-good or all-bad, that something can ascribed to 1 single root cause to blame, etc.). Some off-the-cuff ideas/questions, not all of them may be applicable to you, but hopefully it triggers some introspection on your part: - Do you often think thoughts like, "I know I am right, everyone else is wrong, why can't they just appreciate my genius"? - Is there anyone that you actually respect in your team/your org? Have you ever tried to ask them, "how did you get to where you are?" Do they mention "sucking up" as a big ingredient? - When was the last time you asked someone to help you with something? Did you phrase it as a demand or threat? Or did you seek some kind of mutually beneficial win-win outcome? - When was the last time you admitted to making a mistake? - When was the last time you let someone else convince you to change your mind about something?
- apwell23 2y ago
  I came across an interesting stat "90% of Fortune 500 CEOs play golf and over 80% of executives say that golf played an important role in their career" What do you make of this.
  - strgcmc 2y ago
    Well, are you an executive, or one step from becoming one? Then it's entirely possible that spending more time socializing recreationally can directly help your career. Golf happens to be a common choice, but maybe your exec team likes rock climbing or playing video games... just depends on the company or the social group. Also, whether you are an executive or middle-manager or an IC, overall I don't doubt that socializing and networking and investing in good relationships, is helpful to one's career, but to differing degrees (i.e. for execs = a lot, for middle-managers = a medium amount, for line-level tech ICs = a much lesser amount). And building relationships or earning trust by spending time together != "sucking up". Just the implication that you associate "golf" with "sucking up" apparently, shows that you likely have an inherently antagonistic view of personal relationships. For any given group of people, either they truly like playing golf, or golf just happens to be a convenient activity that allows for lots of downtime, and therefore encourages discussion/communication to happen, either way it's very likely that they are getting together for reasons other than "sucking up". Why do you assume that what happens on the golf course is inherently or inevitably about "sucking up"? Have you never encountered a group of people, getting together for some event (recreational or otherwise), where they just communicate on equal footing, or debate ideas together, but with no one being fawned over or worshipped?
snapcaster 2y ago
I think you should look a bit deeper. Your comment seems to imply if you would just suck it up everything would be perfect but I'm skeptical that it's true
- apwell23 2y ago
  I agree its a necessary but not sufficient condition. I think phrase 'sucking up' seems to have triggered people. I should've said 'building trust and camaraderie' with my superiors, aka being one of the 'bros' in their inner circle .
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    I don't think i'm triggered, it's more that it seems like a poor framing of what is essentially just the reality of working with humans. I think we have a lot more control over our thoughts and perceptions than we give it credit for. I'm skeptical you'll be successful when you're seeing it this negatively
    - apwell23 2y ago
      I see anything that gets me more money as positive. I see 'sucking up' as a positive. I believe from your response that you perceived 'sucking up' as negative for some reason. Curious about why you instinctively reacted that way. whats wrong with sucking up?

teaearlgraycold 2y ago

Find a working environment that is less dependent on sucking up.

chairmansteve 2y ago

Start your own business.

Joel_Mckay 2y ago
This is the best advice, and the logical choice if you want to run things in your own way. One could fight the inertia of a large firm, or simply create an entity that better aligns with your own values and customer needs. A tax strategy driven small business teaches people how to manage projects, and see the stupid manager/worker BS for what it is... no PMP or Phd required... =3
- nohuck13 2y ago
  Can you elaborate? What is a tax strategy driven small business?
  - Joel_Mckay 2y ago
    Essentially, one mitigates the financial risks through tax credits, grants, and labor subsidy programs. i.e. the initial cash burn is money you would have paid in taxes anyway, or simply not purely your own capital. YMMV depending where you live, and your groups financial situation. You would be mistaken if you think only "small" firms operate this way... =)
SoftTalker 2y ago
Then you have to suck up to clients/customers. And they're often way more demanding and irrational than managers in a company.
- Joel_Mckay 2y ago
  The ex-servicemen I hired used to bug me about taking customer abuse in meetings... I pointed out we bill by the hour, and if someone wants to sit there irrationally ranting at people to work though their solution... so be it... lol =3
- galdosdi 2y ago
  At least there's N instead of 1 of them, so any given asshole's relative importance is only 1/N to keeping your "job"

tracker1 2y ago

There's a difference between "sucking up" and being polite/courteous and respectful. For me, arrogance has always been a bit of a trigger. I can work with most people, but when someone is both arrogant and less than competent it irks me to no end. My advice is try to always assume the best possible interpretation of any given person's motives in a workplace. Try to be friendly.

steveBK123 2y ago
> arrogance has always been a bit of a trigger. I can work with most people, but when someone is both arrogant and less than competent it irks me to no end I think this is a common trigger for a lot of technically inclined people, myself included. In those cases I generally try to focus on acceptable outcomes more than "being right". And, importantly, not focussing as much on proving the other guy wrong (which is not quite the same as proving yourself right). Having a track record of delivery without being seen as the sore thumbs that sticks out goes a long way.
- Joel_Mckay 2y ago
  There are different management styles, and each have their own trade-offs. Some people don't see the big picture, and get mired in personal conflicts. Generally, when it is your budgets being spent on payroll the perspectives on jerky behavior shifts a little. =3
chasd00 2y ago
I have zero tolerance for an arrogant manager/Sr. X dressing down a more junior resource willing and eager to learn and get better. I have a reputation for patience, compassion, and a calming effect on clients and team except in this case. I could probably handle it better but one thing about putting someone on a cross for all to see is they're on a cross for all to see.
apwell23 2y ago
> Try to be friendly. I am already friendly. I am not convinced that merely being friendly will get you to your VPs 'inner circle'.

the_snooze 2y ago

The trap is thinking that management is about "sucking up" or "playing a game." The way I run my team is entirely in line with my personality and values. There's no fakery at all. In a way, that's the key: you need to be in an environment where you can operate in a way that works for you and delivers value to the organization. I'm very explicit to my higher-ups about what I'm optimizing for, and that if there's a day when my organization no longer values that, I'll step back from this management role.

strgcmc 2y ago

I would actually encourage you to zoom out 1 or 2 levels, and instead of focusing on the "how to get better at 'sucking up'" problem, I would instead coach you to think about why you chose to apply this specific mental model to your career, and why this form of "black-and-white" thinking might be hurting you even more (as a general theme, where "suck up" is just one specific example). I am 99.9% certain that, the overall trajectory of your career is not hinging on something as specific as "if only I learned how to 'suck up' then everything would be great". This is actually a form of magical thinking, of making excuses to avoid engaging with the real problems, and instead just lumping everything into a single excuse as to why ____ didn't work out. The fact that you mention "too much pride, introversion, embarrassment" is also a clue to me that you might be someone with very rigid patterns of thought, and therefore likely to fall victim to black-and-white thinking (that something is all-good or all-bad, that something can ascribed to 1 single root cause to blame, etc.). Some off-the-cuff ideas/questions, not all of them may be applicable to you, but hopefully it triggers some introspection on your part: - Do you often think thoughts like, "I know I am right, everyone else is wrong, why can't they just appreciate my genius"? - Is there anyone that you actually respect in your team/your org? Have you ever tried to ask them, "how did you get to where you are?" Do they mention "sucking up" as a big ingredient? - When was the last time you asked someone to help you with something? Did you phrase it as a demand or threat? Or did you seek some kind of mutually beneficial win-win outcome? - When was the last time you admitted to making a mistake? - When was the last time you let someone else convince you to change your mind about something?

apwell23 2y ago
I came across an interesting stat "90% of Fortune 500 CEOs play golf and over 80% of executives say that golf played an important role in their career" What do you make of this.
- strgcmc 2y ago
  Well, are you an executive, or one step from becoming one? Then it's entirely possible that spending more time socializing recreationally can directly help your career. Golf happens to be a common choice, but maybe your exec team likes rock climbing or playing video games... just depends on the company or the social group. Also, whether you are an executive or middle-manager or an IC, overall I don't doubt that socializing and networking and investing in good relationships, is helpful to one's career, but to differing degrees (i.e. for execs = a lot, for middle-managers = a medium amount, for line-level tech ICs = a much lesser amount). And building relationships or earning trust by spending time together != "sucking up". Just the implication that you associate "golf" with "sucking up" apparently, shows that you likely have an inherently antagonistic view of personal relationships. For any given group of people, either they truly like playing golf, or golf just happens to be a convenient activity that allows for lots of downtime, and therefore encourages discussion/communication to happen, either way it's very likely that they are getting together for reasons other than "sucking up". Why do you assume that what happens on the golf course is inherently or inevitably about "sucking up"? Have you never encountered a group of people, getting together for some event (recreational or otherwise), where they just communicate on equal footing, or debate ideas together, but with no one being fawned over or worshipped?

snapcaster 2y ago

I think you should look a bit deeper. Your comment seems to imply if you would just suck it up everything would be perfect but I'm skeptical that it's true

apwell23 2y ago
I agree its a necessary but not sufficient condition. I think phrase 'sucking up' seems to have triggered people. I should've said 'building trust and camaraderie' with my superiors, aka being one of the 'bros' in their inner circle .
- snapcaster 2y ago
  I don't think i'm triggered, it's more that it seems like a poor framing of what is essentially just the reality of working with humans. I think we have a lot more control over our thoughts and perceptions than we give it credit for. I'm skeptical you'll be successful when you're seeing it this negatively
  - apwell23 2y ago
    I see anything that gets me more money as positive. I see 'sucking up' as a positive. I believe from your response that you perceived 'sucking up' as negative for some reason. Curious about why you instinctively reacted that way. whats wrong with sucking up?