5 ms·

> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from

> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins. There is a good calculation example here [1] [1]: https://x.com/sozi_simon/status/1737361321186701336 https://x.com/sozi_simon/status/1737361321186701336

onli 2y ago
For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lohnt-sich-arbeit-noch-lohnabstand-und-arbeitsanreize-2024 https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted people to slide into work (through being self-employed for example). That should be a percentage, so that you have more at the end when completing a freelance project for example, instead of having worked for nothing. What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore - which is not true, neither the connection nor that people don't want to work. And to combine it with the statement that the welfare benefits are high, when they are not - the problem, if there is one, is that earned money reduces the benefits 100%, instead of on a sliding scale. It's not the amount, as in 99% of scenarios being on state welfare completely sucks in Germany, it's the scenario of not having enough money for food at the end of the month, being scared to heat in the winter and each unforeseen bill a mayor crisis. Also, it is also not okay to not mention that bürgergeld is still combined with sanctions. If not taking up (usual shitty ) work it can be lost, or missing a summoning, etc. Being in that system is thus highly stressful. Those sanctions were supposed to go away, instead they were made harder. Thanks SPD.
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  > What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore I still don't agree it's right wing propaganda. Bürgergeld is just one part of a larger picture of why people don't want to work anymore. The reality is that social welfare in its entirety is too close to what you can earn with low skilled work, wages are too low and benefits are too high and cut off too suddenly. > It's not the amount, as in 99% of scenarios being on state welfare completely sucks in Germany Again, I can not confirm. I have lived on state welfare (Hartz IV) for my entire life before moving out of my parents. > it's the scenario of not having enough money for food at the end of the month, being scared to heat in the winter and each unforeseen bill a mayor crisis. This is not true in my experience. I don't know where you're getting this information from. Heating costs were always covered unless you heat like a maniac and unforseen bills are not happening. Where should they? Your apartment and car fixing costs are covered. You can read more about this here: [1] > Also, it is also not okay to not mention that bürgergeld is still combined with sanctions. If not taking up (usual shitty ) work it can be lost, or missing a summoning, etc. Being in that system is thus highly stressful. Those sanctions were supposed to go away, instead they were made harder. Thanks SPD. Why shouldn't they take up shitty work? It's not undignified. My mother stocked shelves for Aldi. She worked gas stations. She did community work. She couldn't hold a job for long. It's hard work and that's okay. You don't have the right to dodge shitty work just because you don't think it's gratifying. It's also not as stressful as you make it out to be. You have to remember, you're still getting so much stuff for free there are millions of people who would die for that chance. A little stress still makes it worth it. Yes, you need to be smart with money. That's okay. Welfare should not make for a live of comfortable spending. But people don't live in a state of desolation. The point of welfare is to enable people who can't work to live a dignified live. Not a comfortable one. We're just so out of touch in Germany, people on our welfare system can't see their incredible privilege. [1]: https://www.inside-digital.de/news/buergergeld-jobcenter-bezahlt-auch-auto-kosten#:~:text=Wer%20B%C3%BCrgergeld%20bezieht%2C%20kann%20sich%20Auto%2DKosten%20zur%C3%BCckholen&text=Neben%20Wohnung%20und%20Heizung%20bezahlt,Urteil%20des%20Sozialgerichts%20Mainz%20hervor https://www.inside-digital.de/news/buergergeld-jobcenter-bez....
  - 2y ago
littlestymaar 2y ago
> Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins. It's very funny, because people with the same political opinions as you in my country are absolutely positive that this is the case for my country instead (France). And in practice they are pretty similar (as are many European systems unsurprisingly, we all draw inspiration on each other) and as someone who knows the French social system fairly well I can assure you that the trope you hear from right wing politicians on TV is nothing but lies.
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  Both can be right in their own way. I'm not saying we should get rid of our welfare. I'm just saying our people are missing the point. It's incredible privilege to live here. You think they would get the same welfare in the US, in China, Ghana or Russia? Think again. They should be grateful is what I'm saying.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work, which I'm arguing against. You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. Now I agree with you that even though their live is still tough, they are still very lucky to live in Germany as opposed to many other places on earth. But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost.
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      > No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work Well you‘re free to quote me on that. I haven‘t been saying this at all. > which I'm arguing against. No, you’re arguing for falsehoods. Posters here are stating that things that are covered aren‘t and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue. > You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. I haven‘t. Again, please do quote me. > But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost. No, the topic was that you (among others) think people on Bürgergeld starve, are in dire need of heating and live in depressed states for lack of funding. These are lies. You‘re lying. I’ve no idea why.
onli 2y ago
BTW, you can't get bürgergeld and Wohngeld at the same time, so that's already completely wrong. See https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/buergergeld/wohnen https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/buerg... : Wenn Sie Bürgergeld erhalten, haben Sie keinen Anspruch auf Wohngeld. Allerdings ist Wohngeld eine vorrangige Leistung. Wenn Sie dadurch Ihre Hilfebedürftigkeit beseitigen oder vermeiden können, können Sie einen Wohngeldantrag stellen (ab dem 1. Juli 2023 sind Sie verpflichtet, einen Wohngeldantrag zu stellen).

onli 2y ago

For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lohnt-sich-arbeit-noch-lohnabstand-und-arbeitsanreize-2024 https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted people to slide into work (through being self-employed for example). That should be a percentage, so that you have more at the end when completing a freelance project for example, instead of having worked for nothing. What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore - which is not true, neither the connection nor that people don't want to work. And to combine it with the statement that the welfare benefits are high, when they are not - the problem, if there is one, is that earned money reduces the benefits 100%, instead of on a sliding scale. It's not the amount, as in 99% of scenarios being on state welfare completely sucks in Germany, it's the scenario of not having enough money for food at the end of the month, being scared to heat in the winter and each unforeseen bill a mayor crisis. Also, it is also not okay to not mention that bürgergeld is still combined with sanctions. If not taking up (usual shitty ) work it can be lost, or missing a summoning, etc. Being in that system is thus highly stressful. Those sanctions were supposed to go away, instead they were made harder. Thanks SPD.

selfmodruntime 2y ago
> What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore I still don't agree it's right wing propaganda. Bürgergeld is just one part of a larger picture of why people don't want to work anymore. The reality is that social welfare in its entirety is too close to what you can earn with low skilled work, wages are too low and benefits are too high and cut off too suddenly. > It's not the amount, as in 99% of scenarios being on state welfare completely sucks in Germany Again, I can not confirm. I have lived on state welfare (Hartz IV) for my entire life before moving out of my parents. > it's the scenario of not having enough money for food at the end of the month, being scared to heat in the winter and each unforeseen bill a mayor crisis. This is not true in my experience. I don't know where you're getting this information from. Heating costs were always covered unless you heat like a maniac and unforseen bills are not happening. Where should they? Your apartment and car fixing costs are covered. You can read more about this here: [1] > Also, it is also not okay to not mention that bürgergeld is still combined with sanctions. If not taking up (usual shitty ) work it can be lost, or missing a summoning, etc. Being in that system is thus highly stressful. Those sanctions were supposed to go away, instead they were made harder. Thanks SPD. Why shouldn't they take up shitty work? It's not undignified. My mother stocked shelves for Aldi. She worked gas stations. She did community work. She couldn't hold a job for long. It's hard work and that's okay. You don't have the right to dodge shitty work just because you don't think it's gratifying. It's also not as stressful as you make it out to be. You have to remember, you're still getting so much stuff for free there are millions of people who would die for that chance. A little stress still makes it worth it. Yes, you need to be smart with money. That's okay. Welfare should not make for a live of comfortable spending. But people don't live in a state of desolation. The point of welfare is to enable people who can't work to live a dignified live. Not a comfortable one. We're just so out of touch in Germany, people on our welfare system can't see their incredible privilege. [1]: https://www.inside-digital.de/news/buergergeld-jobcenter-bezahlt-auch-auto-kosten#:~:text=Wer%20B%C3%BCrgergeld%20bezieht%2C%20kann%20sich%20Auto%2DKosten%20zur%C3%BCckholen&text=Neben%20Wohnung%20und%20Heizung%20bezahlt,Urteil%20des%20Sozialgerichts%20Mainz%20hervor https://www.inside-digital.de/news/buergergeld-jobcenter-bez....
- 2y ago

littlestymaar 2y ago

> Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins. It's very funny, because people with the same political opinions as you in my country are absolutely positive that this is the case for my country instead (France). And in practice they are pretty similar (as are many European systems unsurprisingly, we all draw inspiration on each other) and as someone who knows the French social system fairly well I can assure you that the trope you hear from right wing politicians on TV is nothing but lies.

selfmodruntime 2y ago
Both can be right in their own way. I'm not saying we should get rid of our welfare. I'm just saying our people are missing the point. It's incredible privilege to live here. You think they would get the same welfare in the US, in China, Ghana or Russia? Think again. They should be grateful is what I'm saying.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work, which I'm arguing against. You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. Now I agree with you that even though their live is still tough, they are still very lucky to live in Germany as opposed to many other places on earth. But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost.
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    > No that's not what you're saying, you're saying that they live easily and have no incentive to work Well you‘re free to quote me on that. I haven‘t been saying this at all. > which I'm arguing against. No, you’re arguing for falsehoods. Posters here are stating that things that are covered aren‘t and that people on Bürgergeld live in abhorrent poverty, which is demonstrably untrue. > You also said this lack of incentive to work is causing inflation, which I'm also arguing against. I haven‘t. Again, please do quote me. > But that wasn't the topic and you moved the goalpost. No, the topic was that you (among others) think people on Bürgergeld starve, are in dire need of heating and live in depressed states for lack of funding. These are lies. You‘re lying. I’ve no idea why.

onli 2y ago

BTW, you can't get bürgergeld and Wohngeld at the same time, so that's already completely wrong. See https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/buergergeld/wohnen https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/buerg... : Wenn Sie Bürgergeld erhalten, haben Sie keinen Anspruch auf Wohngeld. Allerdings ist Wohngeld eine vorrangige Leistung. Wenn Sie dadurch Ihre Hilfebedürftigkeit beseitigen oder vermeiden können, können Sie einen Wohngeldantrag stellen (ab dem 1. Juli 2023 sind Sie verpflichtet, einen Wohngeldantrag zu stellen).