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Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case. Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable

Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case. Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that with a computer that I owned. My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sitting in one component waiting to fail and considering the warranty is a year (or 3 if you are extorted for even more cash by Apple for their expensive AppleCare service). First it was the batteries - now no longer replaceable by mere mortals, then the SSDs were brought in with proprietary interfaces, now the RAM is soldered on the board. In the average 5 year life span of a computer, I have found that you will need to replace the battery between 1-2 times, the memory will need to be upgraded at least once and the disk will need to be upgraded. These are observations but rational ones. I'm now sitting on a Lenovo T61 which is 5 years old. EVERY component in this machine can be replaced for literally nothing and very rapidly. Sorry but stuff like this is just pandering to consumerism if it is disposable by design. The design is retarded. EDIT: It appears the battery is GLUED in so that's not replaceable any more either, even with the aid of a screwdriver.

henrikeh 14y ago
Kind of off-topic: I've got a T60 with a broken graphics card (Honestly, not sure, but all evidence points in that direction). It still works, there just isn't any image on the internal monitor (and severe problems on external). Can I fix the graphics card? Nope, but I can still install another OS and keep it running until something truly critical fails.
- gouranga 14y ago
  Nope but you can grab another T60 with broken screen or chassis off ebay for a few dollars and do a frankenstein job (takes about 30 minutes): http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116-FOR-SPARES-14-1-VERSION-/360464103857?pt=UK_Motherboards_CPUs&hash=item53ed55b9b1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116...
- eli 14y ago
  Shine a bright light on the internal monitor -- a much more likely explanation is that the invertor or backlight died. If that's the case you should just barely be able to make out what's on the dark screen if you look closely. It's relatively easy to replace the invertor. There are service manuals on the Lenovo/IBM site that tell you how to replace all things that are replaceable.
- freehunter 14y ago
  Dell used to make mini-PCIe video card on some of their laptops. No idea if they still do. I know on my Inspiron E1705 I had in 2006, I could swap the video card for a new one provided I could actually source a new one. I don't know anyone selling mini-PCIe cards outside of eBay, but it is possible to make a modular laptop. Newegg actually sells barebone laptop kits.
biafra 14y ago
The battery is easily replaceable. If you know how to use a screwdriver. Is that too much to ask?
- gouranga 14y ago
  Err, it's glued in which is considerably worse: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Display-Teardown/9462/1?revisionid=HEAD http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ... Actually, looking through the entire teardown, I think the battery being glued in is worse than anything as levering it out is likely to cause the Li-Ion cells to blow up. Also consider how hard it is recycling that machine! Their summary: 1. Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside. 2. As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade. 3. The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future. 4. The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process. 5. The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly. The whole machine is a joke. PLEASE DON'T BUY ONE!
  - jonknee 14y ago
    > consider how hard it is recycling that machine Tell Apple and they'll send you a shipping label. Just like any other Mac. http://www.apple.com/recycling/gift-card/ http://www.apple.com/recycling/gift-card/
    - gouranga 14y ago
      No - that's how hard it is for YOU to initiate the recycling of the machine. The actual recycling bit is considerably harder.
wensing 14y ago
I've had 5 Apple laptops since 2001 and have never had to replace anything. Average time of ownership has only been 2 years, though. Because of the resale value, I've found it's pretty effective to sell the 2-year old and put it towards a new one.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - stouset 14y ago
    FWIW, Apple's machines are some of the most recyclable in the industry. Aluminum and glass are far more recyclable than plastic.
- drivingmenuts 14y ago
  In the part of my job where I'm an IT Manager, I can tell you I've had one user go thru three motherboards. In a year. Without spilling anything on them or otherwise mistreating the computer. I'm, like, a slobbery fanboi and I can tell you, occasionally, Apple makes one that's rotten.
  - pearle 14y ago
    This happened to me with my last MBP. Three motherboards and four batteries within a 3 year period. The case also cracked near the screen. I've since switched to another laptop manufacturer.
    - drivingmenuts 14y ago
      Does it run OS X?
      - pearle 14y ago
        No, Ubuntu 12.04 & Windows 8 Preview
ctdonath 14y ago
Making components replaceable increases volume, weight, and cost. If you want replaceable components, go buy a computer for which that is a feature - and know that you will get a machine which is larger, heavier, and more expensive (all other factors being equal). Swapable components require additional casing, connectors, testing, sales channels, etc. You're not going to get a 3/4" 5-lb 7-hour 256GB-SSD 8GB-RAM MBA Retina for $2200 and be able to swap out darn near everything; something's gonna give. Some of us DON'T want to replace components, having learned over the years that by the time we're replacing components we'd rather replace the whole computer outright. If I need more RAM, it's best matched with a new CPU. If I need more storage, I'll need more RAM to throw around more data. When the battery dies, all those other components are gettin' obsolete anyway. I also know from experience that upgrading parts doesn't always go as planned, and time wasted upgrading can very quickly add up to the cost of a new machine outright. I'd rather have a notebook which is very thin, very light, very fast - and just replace the whole package when the time comes as I see fit. You're welcome to a different POV, and there is a market happy to serve our different needs & desires. However, just because we have a different POV doesn't make me a f*ing idiot.
- super_mario 14y ago
  Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. Sometimes your processes are not CPU bound at all, sometimes they are I/O bound. Sometimes in RAM caches can increase performance quite a bit etc. This means swapping HDD and putting faster SSD is enough to speed certain things up. Also, updating RAM only is enough to speed things up in certain other criteria. Besides it is well understood in technical circles where Apple is headed. Make no mistake. Their goal is to kill general purpose computers, and replace them with appliances they control.
  - ctdonath 14y ago
    Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. Um, you missed the last line of the post you replied to.
  - 14y ago
feralchimp 14y ago
> you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one Whenever I get the urge to write something like that, I ask myself: "Am I in the target market for this?" A product built to these tolerances is not one that a rational person (even a competent one, with experience fixing computers) should want to crack open. Make the professionals worry about getting in and out of it, and enjoy the fact that they'll be liable for anything they break in the process. "Not user serviceable by design" != "disposable by design." You're not wandering across a post-apocalyptic desert wasteland with this thing; take it to a f'ing Apple Store and grab a coffee while the infrastructure wrenches on it.
- 51Cards 14y ago
  ... while it's under warranty. Pay through the nose when it's not because it can't be serviced anywhere else. Simply put, would you buy a car that once beyond the warranty had to have brakes, tires, battery, air filter, and spark plugs replaced ONLY at the dealership with parts at factory cost? In addition if any part broke on the engine you would have to replace the entire engine. It's not that much different. I would expect for that price a lot of people would like their MacBook to outlast the warranty with an option to fix it at a reasonable price. I can guarantee if the RAM fails they will replace the MB, and they won't do that for the price of the RAM chips. The bigger problem to me is that the general consumer is unaware of these 'gotchas' until it's too late. That's where I have a problem with it. Have had to inform a few friends with Apple products that no, as much as I wanted to I could not help fix their notebook like I used to with their PCs.
  - drbawb 14y ago
    You do realize that many premium cars have exactly this mentality surrounding them? Audis are notoriously difficult to work on, as were Saab's, and good luck finding somebody certified to service a Porsche in your area that doesn't work at a Porsche dealer. Not to mention, people that spend that much on a car usually want performance parts or factory parts [not your average "OEM equivalent" parts] and a competent technician that specializes in working with their specific make of car. Why? Because they're uncompromising in the quality of the vehicle they just purchased. To people like this, they don't care if they have to pay extra for an AAA membership because it's too difficult to jump-start their own car. Why is it so unreasonable to expect that there are some computer users that hold a similar attitude about their "luxury" computer brand?
jwr 14y ago
No need for profanity. Why the strong emotions? To make a laptop this small and thin with this much stuff inside, you have to get rid of certain elements. Before calling people names I'd suggest you check if it is at all possible to fit two (you'd want TWO, right?) SODIMM slots in the space available. Same goes for the battery — when I saw the first pictures of the internals, I said "well, they finally got rid of the integrated battery pack": you have to, if you want to get that much mAh into that little space. It's a natural progression — an externally replaceable battery takes the most space, an internal (but still a single one) battery pack takes less, and a bunch of cells glued all over the place take even less. I think it's a good compromise. I'd order a laptop with the amount of RAM and storage that I'll need over the next 2 years, which is the time I amortize the purchase over. And — if you don't like it, just don't buy it.
- briguyd 14y ago
  And what am I supposed to do if I don't want to spend $2200 on a computer that only lasts me two years? My laptops usually last me 3-4 years, at least, after a hard drive and RAM upgrade, as well as a new battery.
  - natesm 14y ago
    Accept that you may not be the target market?
  - JackC 14y ago
    And what am I supposed to do if I don't want to spend $2200 on a computer that only lasts me two years? Well, it depends. If someone says "hey, did you check out the new MacBook?" say "yeah, I didn't really like the weight vs. upgradability trade-off" and move on. If someone says "you are required to buy this computer with your own money even if you prefer another one," laugh in their face and move on. If someone says, "wow, this computer is perfect for my needs," say "that's awesome" and move on. Incidentally, this formula actually works any time any product is offered for sale and you don't want to buy it. (Personally, I try not to stress about how much computers cost. In two years I'll probably put in north of 4000 hours on the thing. If there's a meaningfully better option, I'll take it even if it's more expensive. Not that I have a ton of spare cash, or that $2200 is a reasonable figure for most people yet, but this is one area where I think it's a false economy to focus on the cost.)
Hates_ 14y ago
When was the last time you replaced anything yourself in your TV/Car/Other high priced item? If non-user serviceable parts are a consequence of ever increasing technology, then I'll happily accept that.
- gouranga 14y ago
  I'm the wrong person to ask that question to. I repair everything from clothes, through computers, through cars to televisions. There need to be more wrong people to ask that question to.
  - defen 14y ago
    Congratulations. You represent .01% of Apple's target market. Why should they cater to your needs? You seem to be getting angry that someone is making a product which is not compelling for you.
ioquatix 14y ago
No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy this computer. For some people (some being the vast majority of MBP users) this design actually makes a lot of sense.
- gouranga 14y ago
  Yeah penis waving hipsters in Starbucks writing their next novel whilst contributing to the bad credit problem that seems to have screwed up the economy... Not any worthy portion of society then.
  - dpetters 14y ago
    Modern tech products are used by so many people that you really can't give all users the same label. There are some brilliant people using Macs to get their jobs done and same goes with Dells, Lenovos, Windows, IE, Ubuntu, etc..
  - scott_s 14y ago
    You can also add the majority of computer science researchers that I know to that list. As I said in reply to your parent comment, please read the guidelines here. We appreciate civility. If you keep it up, you will eventually be hellbanned.
    - gouranga 14y ago
      Oh I agree entirely. The intent was to mock the comment about suitability for a task. Sometimes it is appropriate to do so to convey a point. My sincerest apologies if such an approach is offensive.
      - scott_s 14y ago
        Being offensive is a secondary concern. The primary concern is that you failed to communicate your point. Even re-reading your comments, I cannot see any indication of sarcasm; I see no indication that you agree with my point that many people who do useful work related to computing use Macbooks.
mironathetin 14y ago
"Sorry but stuff like this is just pandering to consumerism if it is disposable by design." You are kind of right. We use our 7 year old G4 Powerbook with the 4th battery. Its a pity that there is no real operating system available for a Thinkpad.
- freyrs3 14y ago
  > Its a pity that there is no real operating system available for a Thinkpad. What would constitute a real operating system? Last time I checked Windows/Linux/BSD are very much real operating systems.
  - mironathetin 14y ago
    "What would constitute a real operating system? " If you want to know my most important point: backup and play back (bootable) EASILY.
    - gtrak 14y ago
      dd..
    - freyrs3 14y ago
      How is that even a function of the operating system?
      - yuhong 14y ago
        Yea the problem is the legacy PC BIOS which relies on real-mode boot sectors. EFI firmware has code to read file systems which makes this much easier, and PCs are finally beginning to have it too.
      - mironathetin 14y ago
        "How is that even a function of the operating system?" My statement was provocative, I guess. This is like a Harley driver asking if a Yamaha is a real Motorcycle (is it?). Backup is not a function of the operating system, but the key question is whether software is available FOR the operating system. Could be even an issue of bios, but who cares except theorists? You always buy a package.
jakeonthemove 14y ago
Yep, the design is plain stupid. Then again, the average consumer and corporate user never replace components anyway, so Apple will probably not lose sales over this. I hope other manufacturers won't follow suit, though...
scott_s 14y ago
You're relatively new here, so you may not be familiar with our community's culture. Please read the guidelines: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In particular, note: Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation.
- gouranga 14y ago
  I would say this face to face and regularly do. Honesty is the best policy.
  - scott_s 14y ago
    Be civil.
- okamiueru 14y ago
  Technically, no one owns one of these yet, so the expressed remark is directed at the design, and decisions behind the design. Also, the reasoning is provided as well. If it crosses the line, it's mostly because of the profanity in itself, though I don't see the need for a reprimand.
  - scott_s 14y ago
    It's not the profanity, but the intent behind the statement with the profanity. Remove the profanity, and it's still not a civil comment. It poisons discussion.
primitur 14y ago
I'm with you, at least as far as the consumerism is concerned. Maybe we are all fucking idiots, somehow, some way, but I tend to think if you've got a computer in front of you, whatever you're doing, you're in a mighty fine privilege. All computers have incurred their debt upon the planet; to dispose of a computing device because it is 'slow' is an ultimate failure to comprehend the nature of computing: the user makes a decision to use, or not use, arbitrarily. I have a couple Toughbooks from the 90's, I'll probably never throw them away, but instead keep using them for more years yet, because: fully user upgradable. http://www.google.com/search?q=panasonic+toughbook+cf25&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch http://www.google.com/search?q=panasonic+toughbook+cf25&... Though slow by 'modern standards', they are still perfectly usable computers, still quite adequate for most needs, which haven't really changed terribly much. Slow-ass Pentium 133's with a nice, tight, Linux distribution, no driver worries whatsoever, and workable for my needs. One is an offline Wikipedia/Doc-dump that can be easily road-tripped, powered from a cross-bike battery, chucked up the cliff and so on, and the other is a general-purpose debug device for various embedded projects back in the lab, where-in such things as standard serial and parallel ports are still .. a bit useful .. You know why these computers are still in use? They kick ass. 3 Open PCMCIA slots per device. Magnesium-Alloy cases that take a real beating, and can yet still be opened with a coin, in case you want to put a different component into the gel-protected insides. In the lab-bench toughbook there is room for its disk as well as various shields, arduinos, proto pcb's, and so on. It functions very nicely as a carry case in that regard, too: I have room for my DS-one scope, when I need it. Oh, its got standard strap mounts as in I can take one off a gun and strap the toughbook behind me as I ride off into the desert. If Apple ever make something like this, i.e. the complete other end of the spectrum, I would be very surprised. There are places, though, an iPad and a Macbook and an iMac and an iPod .. well maybe my iPod would fit along the DS-1 .. but anyway, there are places that the 'elite delicate consumer electronics' can't go. My point is, there are alternatives to the Macbook cult. Apple don't have ANYTHING that competes with the toughbook in terms of user servicibility, but then: that is another arbitrary choice being made by the Apple Super-power. Apple is so big now that if it decides to build a walled-garden, then such shall the field grow. If they WANTED to make a computer that could seriously benefit future generations, it wouldn't be out-dated in a decade, or two decades, or even three. It'd be useful for a Century.
rsanheim 14y ago
Wow, settle down. No need to freak out about this, just don't buy it. I'm getting one with 16 GB of RAM. Pretty sure I won't want to upgrade that before I upgrade the whole machine in ~2 years.
jdietrich 14y ago
Laptop CPUs have been soldered in for as long as I can remember. We've all come to accept that as a perfectly reasonable compromise. With the exception of some high-end gaming laptops, GPUs are also soldered in. Apple have made the perfectly reasonable decision to maximise portability for the 99% of users who never upgrade any component, over the 1% for whom upgradability matters. To dismiss people with different priorities to yours as idiotic is, to be frank, the reason nobody liked you at school. The benefits of Apple's approach are obvious - they have substantially reduced the bulk of each generation of machine, whilst still improving performance and battery life. We've already been through this debate in the automotive industry. Cars used to be readily maintainable and modifiable, but miserably unreliable. Electronics and sealed units hugely increased reliability. Auto enthusiasts lamented this change as an assault on the amateur mechanic and the march of disposable consumerism, but the market never looked back. Most people don't care that they can't remap the ECU in their car and most people don't care if their RAM isn't replaceable. That's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint.
- excuse-me 14y ago
  Alternatively they have made an expensive professional tool into a disposable consumer gadget.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    How is it any more of a "disposable gadget" than the previous generation which has all the same soldered components but the RAM, exactly? My current machine got its RAM upgraded once, the day I bought it, and will never see an other RAM upgrade in its life because I'm at the chipset's capacity. It's in the exact same position as the new mbp. Has it suddenly become a "disposable computer gadget" where it was an "expensive professional tool" between the moment I received it and the moment I put the new ram sticks in? Even though I hadn't even booted it up at that point, and it's my day-to-day workhorse now?
    - excuse-me 14y ago
      According to the post you can't replace the drive or the battery either.
da_n 14y ago
"Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case." This is just technology marching on, it is cutting edge engineering and manufacturing and Apple care is next to none in the industry. To call a person buying this a fucking idiot is akin to an old timer smacking down the youngsters about modern TV's because you can no longer swap out the valve tubes.
- gouranga 14y ago
  I disagree. It's medicre crap wrapped in a pretty wrapper. The thing with modern TV's is that they don't need RAM upgrades, don't have any user-fillable storage built in and have external power supplies.
sireat 14y ago
I am just surprised that people are surprised about Macs being hard to upgrade. They have always been a PIA to upgrade since Day 1: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Diagnostic_Port.txt http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...
cmsj 14y ago
So buy the classic MacBook design while it's still available. Easy :)

henrikeh 14y ago

Kind of off-topic: I've got a T60 with a broken graphics card (Honestly, not sure, but all evidence points in that direction). It still works, there just isn't any image on the internal monitor (and severe problems on external). Can I fix the graphics card? Nope, but I can still install another OS and keep it running until something truly critical fails.

gouranga 14y ago
Nope but you can grab another T60 with broken screen or chassis off ebay for a few dollars and do a frankenstein job (takes about 30 minutes): http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116-FOR-SPARES-14-1-VERSION-/360464103857?pt=UK_Motherboards_CPUs&hash=item53ed55b9b1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116...
eli 14y ago
Shine a bright light on the internal monitor -- a much more likely explanation is that the invertor or backlight died. If that's the case you should just barely be able to make out what's on the dark screen if you look closely. It's relatively easy to replace the invertor. There are service manuals on the Lenovo/IBM site that tell you how to replace all things that are replaceable.
freehunter 14y ago
Dell used to make mini-PCIe video card on some of their laptops. No idea if they still do. I know on my Inspiron E1705 I had in 2006, I could swap the video card for a new one provided I could actually source a new one. I don't know anyone selling mini-PCIe cards outside of eBay, but it is possible to make a modular laptop. Newegg actually sells barebone laptop kits.

biafra 14y ago

The battery is easily replaceable. If you know how to use a screwdriver. Is that too much to ask?

gouranga 14y ago
Err, it's glued in which is considerably worse: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Display-Teardown/9462/1?revisionid=HEAD http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ... Actually, looking through the entire teardown, I think the battery being glued in is worse than anything as levering it out is likely to cause the Li-Ion cells to blow up. Also consider how hard it is recycling that machine! Their summary: 1. Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside. 2. As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade. 3. The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future. 4. The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process. 5. The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly. The whole machine is a joke. PLEASE DON'T BUY ONE!
- jonknee 14y ago
  > consider how hard it is recycling that machine Tell Apple and they'll send you a shipping label. Just like any other Mac. http://www.apple.com/recycling/gift-card/ http://www.apple.com/recycling/gift-card/
  - gouranga 14y ago
    No - that's how hard it is for YOU to initiate the recycling of the machine. The actual recycling bit is considerably harder.

wensing 14y ago

I've had 5 Apple laptops since 2001 and have never had to replace anything. Average time of ownership has only been 2 years, though. Because of the resale value, I've found it's pretty effective to sell the 2-year old and put it towards a new one.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- stouset 14y ago
  FWIW, Apple's machines are some of the most recyclable in the industry. Aluminum and glass are far more recyclable than plastic.
drivingmenuts 14y ago
In the part of my job where I'm an IT Manager, I can tell you I've had one user go thru three motherboards. In a year. Without spilling anything on them or otherwise mistreating the computer. I'm, like, a slobbery fanboi and I can tell you, occasionally, Apple makes one that's rotten.
- pearle 14y ago
  This happened to me with my last MBP. Three motherboards and four batteries within a 3 year period. The case also cracked near the screen. I've since switched to another laptop manufacturer.
  - drivingmenuts 14y ago
    Does it run OS X?
    - pearle 14y ago
      No, Ubuntu 12.04 & Windows 8 Preview

ctdonath 14y ago

Making components replaceable increases volume, weight, and cost. If you want replaceable components, go buy a computer for which that is a feature - and know that you will get a machine which is larger, heavier, and more expensive (all other factors being equal). Swapable components require additional casing, connectors, testing, sales channels, etc. You're not going to get a 3/4" 5-lb 7-hour 256GB-SSD 8GB-RAM MBA Retina for $2200 and be able to swap out darn near everything; something's gonna give. Some of us DON'T want to replace components, having learned over the years that by the time we're replacing components we'd rather replace the whole computer outright. If I need more RAM, it's best matched with a new CPU. If I need more storage, I'll need more RAM to throw around more data. When the battery dies, all those other components are gettin' obsolete anyway. I also know from experience that upgrading parts doesn't always go as planned, and time wasted upgrading can very quickly add up to the cost of a new machine outright. I'd rather have a notebook which is very thin, very light, very fast - and just replace the whole package when the time comes as I see fit. You're welcome to a different POV, and there is a market happy to serve our different needs & desires. However, just because we have a different POV doesn't make me a f*ing idiot.

super_mario 14y ago
Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. Sometimes your processes are not CPU bound at all, sometimes they are I/O bound. Sometimes in RAM caches can increase performance quite a bit etc. This means swapping HDD and putting faster SSD is enough to speed certain things up. Also, updating RAM only is enough to speed things up in certain other criteria. Besides it is well understood in technical circles where Apple is headed. Make no mistake. Their goal is to kill general purpose computers, and replace them with appliances they control.
- ctdonath 14y ago
  Your assumptions are completely wrong, and it only shows that Apple target customers are not really doing any kind of serious computing. Um, you missed the last line of the post you replied to.
- 14y ago

feralchimp 14y ago

> you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one Whenever I get the urge to write something like that, I ask myself: "Am I in the target market for this?" A product built to these tolerances is not one that a rational person (even a competent one, with experience fixing computers) should want to crack open. Make the professionals worry about getting in and out of it, and enjoy the fact that they'll be liable for anything they break in the process. "Not user serviceable by design" != "disposable by design." You're not wandering across a post-apocalyptic desert wasteland with this thing; take it to a f'ing Apple Store and grab a coffee while the infrastructure wrenches on it.

51Cards 14y ago
... while it's under warranty. Pay through the nose when it's not because it can't be serviced anywhere else. Simply put, would you buy a car that once beyond the warranty had to have brakes, tires, battery, air filter, and spark plugs replaced ONLY at the dealership with parts at factory cost? In addition if any part broke on the engine you would have to replace the entire engine. It's not that much different. I would expect for that price a lot of people would like their MacBook to outlast the warranty with an option to fix it at a reasonable price. I can guarantee if the RAM fails they will replace the MB, and they won't do that for the price of the RAM chips. The bigger problem to me is that the general consumer is unaware of these 'gotchas' until it's too late. That's where I have a problem with it. Have had to inform a few friends with Apple products that no, as much as I wanted to I could not help fix their notebook like I used to with their PCs.
- drbawb 14y ago
  You do realize that many premium cars have exactly this mentality surrounding them? Audis are notoriously difficult to work on, as were Saab's, and good luck finding somebody certified to service a Porsche in your area that doesn't work at a Porsche dealer. Not to mention, people that spend that much on a car usually want performance parts or factory parts [not your average "OEM equivalent" parts] and a competent technician that specializes in working with their specific make of car. Why? Because they're uncompromising in the quality of the vehicle they just purchased. To people like this, they don't care if they have to pay extra for an AAA membership because it's too difficult to jump-start their own car. Why is it so unreasonable to expect that there are some computer users that hold a similar attitude about their "luxury" computer brand?

jwr 14y ago

No need for profanity. Why the strong emotions? To make a laptop this small and thin with this much stuff inside, you have to get rid of certain elements. Before calling people names I'd suggest you check if it is at all possible to fit two (you'd want TWO, right?) SODIMM slots in the space available. Same goes for the battery — when I saw the first pictures of the internals, I said "well, they finally got rid of the integrated battery pack": you have to, if you want to get that much mAh into that little space. It's a natural progression — an externally replaceable battery takes the most space, an internal (but still a single one) battery pack takes less, and a bunch of cells glued all over the place take even less. I think it's a good compromise. I'd order a laptop with the amount of RAM and storage that I'll need over the next 2 years, which is the time I amortize the purchase over. And — if you don't like it, just don't buy it.

briguyd 14y ago
And what am I supposed to do if I don't want to spend $2200 on a computer that only lasts me two years? My laptops usually last me 3-4 years, at least, after a hard drive and RAM upgrade, as well as a new battery.
- natesm 14y ago
  Accept that you may not be the target market?
- JackC 14y ago
  And what am I supposed to do if I don't want to spend $2200 on a computer that only lasts me two years? Well, it depends. If someone says "hey, did you check out the new MacBook?" say "yeah, I didn't really like the weight vs. upgradability trade-off" and move on. If someone says "you are required to buy this computer with your own money even if you prefer another one," laugh in their face and move on. If someone says, "wow, this computer is perfect for my needs," say "that's awesome" and move on. Incidentally, this formula actually works any time any product is offered for sale and you don't want to buy it. (Personally, I try not to stress about how much computers cost. In two years I'll probably put in north of 4000 hours on the thing. If there's a meaningfully better option, I'll take it even if it's more expensive. Not that I have a ton of spare cash, or that $2200 is a reasonable figure for most people yet, but this is one area where I think it's a false economy to focus on the cost.)

Hates_ 14y ago

When was the last time you replaced anything yourself in your TV/Car/Other high priced item? If non-user serviceable parts are a consequence of ever increasing technology, then I'll happily accept that.

gouranga 14y ago
I'm the wrong person to ask that question to. I repair everything from clothes, through computers, through cars to televisions. There need to be more wrong people to ask that question to.
- defen 14y ago
  Congratulations. You represent .01% of Apple's target market. Why should they cater to your needs? You seem to be getting angry that someone is making a product which is not compelling for you.

ioquatix 14y ago

No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy this computer. For some people (some being the vast majority of MBP users) this design actually makes a lot of sense.

gouranga 14y ago
Yeah penis waving hipsters in Starbucks writing their next novel whilst contributing to the bad credit problem that seems to have screwed up the economy... Not any worthy portion of society then.
- dpetters 14y ago
  Modern tech products are used by so many people that you really can't give all users the same label. There are some brilliant people using Macs to get their jobs done and same goes with Dells, Lenovos, Windows, IE, Ubuntu, etc..
- scott_s 14y ago
  You can also add the majority of computer science researchers that I know to that list. As I said in reply to your parent comment, please read the guidelines here. We appreciate civility. If you keep it up, you will eventually be hellbanned.
  - gouranga 14y ago
    Oh I agree entirely. The intent was to mock the comment about suitability for a task. Sometimes it is appropriate to do so to convey a point. My sincerest apologies if such an approach is offensive.
    - scott_s 14y ago
      Being offensive is a secondary concern. The primary concern is that you failed to communicate your point. Even re-reading your comments, I cannot see any indication of sarcasm; I see no indication that you agree with my point that many people who do useful work related to computing use Macbooks.

mironathetin 14y ago

"Sorry but stuff like this is just pandering to consumerism if it is disposable by design." You are kind of right. We use our 7 year old G4 Powerbook with the 4th battery. Its a pity that there is no real operating system available for a Thinkpad.

freyrs3 14y ago
> Its a pity that there is no real operating system available for a Thinkpad. What would constitute a real operating system? Last time I checked Windows/Linux/BSD are very much real operating systems.
- mironathetin 14y ago
  "What would constitute a real operating system? " If you want to know my most important point: backup and play back (bootable) EASILY.
  - gtrak 14y ago
    dd..
  - freyrs3 14y ago
    How is that even a function of the operating system?
    - yuhong 14y ago
      Yea the problem is the legacy PC BIOS which relies on real-mode boot sectors. EFI firmware has code to read file systems which makes this much easier, and PCs are finally beginning to have it too.
    - mironathetin 14y ago
      "How is that even a function of the operating system?" My statement was provocative, I guess. This is like a Harley driver asking if a Yamaha is a real Motorcycle (is it?). Backup is not a function of the operating system, but the key question is whether software is available FOR the operating system. Could be even an issue of bios, but who cares except theorists? You always buy a package.

jakeonthemove 14y ago

Yep, the design is plain stupid. Then again, the average consumer and corporate user never replace components anyway, so Apple will probably not lose sales over this. I hope other manufacturers won't follow suit, though...

scott_s 14y ago

You're relatively new here, so you may not be familiar with our community's culture. Please read the guidelines: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In particular, note: Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation.

gouranga 14y ago
I would say this face to face and regularly do. Honesty is the best policy.
- scott_s 14y ago
  Be civil.
okamiueru 14y ago
Technically, no one owns one of these yet, so the expressed remark is directed at the design, and decisions behind the design. Also, the reasoning is provided as well. If it crosses the line, it's mostly because of the profanity in itself, though I don't see the need for a reprimand.
- scott_s 14y ago
  It's not the profanity, but the intent behind the statement with the profanity. Remove the profanity, and it's still not a civil comment. It poisons discussion.

primitur 14y ago

I'm with you, at least as far as the consumerism is concerned. Maybe we are all fucking idiots, somehow, some way, but I tend to think if you've got a computer in front of you, whatever you're doing, you're in a mighty fine privilege. All computers have incurred their debt upon the planet; to dispose of a computing device because it is 'slow' is an ultimate failure to comprehend the nature of computing: the user makes a decision to use, or not use, arbitrarily. I have a couple Toughbooks from the 90's, I'll probably never throw them away, but instead keep using them for more years yet, because: fully user upgradable. http://www.google.com/search?q=panasonic+toughbook+cf25&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch http://www.google.com/search?q=panasonic+toughbook+cf25&... Though slow by 'modern standards', they are still perfectly usable computers, still quite adequate for most needs, which haven't really changed terribly much. Slow-ass Pentium 133's with a nice, tight, Linux distribution, no driver worries whatsoever, and workable for my needs. One is an offline Wikipedia/Doc-dump that can be easily road-tripped, powered from a cross-bike battery, chucked up the cliff and so on, and the other is a general-purpose debug device for various embedded projects back in the lab, where-in such things as standard serial and parallel ports are still .. a bit useful .. You know why these computers are still in use? They kick ass. 3 Open PCMCIA slots per device. Magnesium-Alloy cases that take a real beating, and can yet still be opened with a coin, in case you want to put a different component into the gel-protected insides. In the lab-bench toughbook there is room for its disk as well as various shields, arduinos, proto pcb's, and so on. It functions very nicely as a carry case in that regard, too: I have room for my DS-one scope, when I need it. Oh, its got standard strap mounts as in I can take one off a gun and strap the toughbook behind me as I ride off into the desert. If Apple ever make something like this, i.e. the complete other end of the spectrum, I would be very surprised. There are places, though, an iPad and a Macbook and an iMac and an iPod .. well maybe my iPod would fit along the DS-1 .. but anyway, there are places that the 'elite delicate consumer electronics' can't go. My point is, there are alternatives to the Macbook cult. Apple don't have ANYTHING that competes with the toughbook in terms of user servicibility, but then: that is another arbitrary choice being made by the Apple Super-power. Apple is so big now that if it decides to build a walled-garden, then such shall the field grow. If they WANTED to make a computer that could seriously benefit future generations, it wouldn't be out-dated in a decade, or two decades, or even three. It'd be useful for a Century.

rsanheim 14y ago

Wow, settle down. No need to freak out about this, just don't buy it. I'm getting one with 16 GB of RAM. Pretty sure I won't want to upgrade that before I upgrade the whole machine in ~2 years.

jdietrich 14y ago

Laptop CPUs have been soldered in for as long as I can remember. We've all come to accept that as a perfectly reasonable compromise. With the exception of some high-end gaming laptops, GPUs are also soldered in. Apple have made the perfectly reasonable decision to maximise portability for the 99% of users who never upgrade any component, over the 1% for whom upgradability matters. To dismiss people with different priorities to yours as idiotic is, to be frank, the reason nobody liked you at school. The benefits of Apple's approach are obvious - they have substantially reduced the bulk of each generation of machine, whilst still improving performance and battery life. We've already been through this debate in the automotive industry. Cars used to be readily maintainable and modifiable, but miserably unreliable. Electronics and sealed units hugely increased reliability. Auto enthusiasts lamented this change as an assault on the amateur mechanic and the march of disposable consumerism, but the market never looked back. Most people don't care that they can't remap the ECU in their car and most people don't care if their RAM isn't replaceable. That's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint.

excuse-me 14y ago
Alternatively they have made an expensive professional tool into a disposable consumer gadget.
- masklinn 14y ago
  How is it any more of a "disposable gadget" than the previous generation which has all the same soldered components but the RAM, exactly? My current machine got its RAM upgraded once, the day I bought it, and will never see an other RAM upgrade in its life because I'm at the chipset's capacity. It's in the exact same position as the new mbp. Has it suddenly become a "disposable computer gadget" where it was an "expensive professional tool" between the moment I received it and the moment I put the new ram sticks in? Even though I hadn't even booted it up at that point, and it's my day-to-day workhorse now?
  - excuse-me 14y ago
    According to the post you can't replace the drive or the battery either.

da_n 14y ago

"Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case." This is just technology marching on, it is cutting edge engineering and manufacturing and Apple care is next to none in the industry. To call a person buying this a fucking idiot is akin to an old timer smacking down the youngsters about modern TV's because you can no longer swap out the valve tubes.

gouranga 14y ago
I disagree. It's medicre crap wrapped in a pretty wrapper. The thing with modern TV's is that they don't need RAM upgrades, don't have any user-fillable storage built in and have external power supplies.

sireat 14y ago

I am just surprised that people are surprised about Macs being hard to upgrade. They have always been a PIA to upgrade since Day 1: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Diagnostic_Port.txt http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...

cmsj 14y ago

So buy the classic MacBook design while it's still available. Easy :)