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To be honest I think with a lot of policy issues in the UK at the moment you need to just give the government a bit of time to breath. Sunak's decision making o

To be honest I think with a lot of policy issues in the UK at the moment you need to just give the government a bit of time to breath. Sunak's decision making on HS2 was bizarre bad long term/short term/pragmatic/polcitical. It was just one of those bizarre moments where he had sort of a correct aim and then changed that aim into "How can I cause as much damage as possible". So the current policy is extremely expensive, makes rail infrastructure worse and leaves even the things that remain in plan, largely poorly planned. But we don't seriously beleive the labour government agree with this plan. We know it's going to change. So at some point in the next 12 months you can pretty much guarantee that a new rail strategy is going to be unveiled, and until that point there isn't really a whole lot worth talking about with the current strategy. The only thing to say is that I doubt HS2 is going to be a core part of the strategy going forward, you're more likely to see some big plans for regional rail and the details on HS2 will likely be "Well let's just tidy up this mess and draw it to a close".

goodcanadian 2y ago
I would love to see HS2 reinstated, but I agree that it is not likely at this time. There are likely higher priority projects that should go ahead first (some form of Northern Powerhouse, for example). At a minimum, though, I do hope that they protect the route for HS2 north of Birmingham even if construction is indefinitely deferred. It is going to be needed eventually.
- panick21_ 2y ago
  HS2 is by far the most important transportation project, it massively impacts the whole rail system. HS2 connects North and South like never before. And it massively improves what you can do with regional and local trains on the rest of the network. And its pretty much ready to go. Work is lined up and planed. All it needs is political support and funding. Other projects should be done, but they should be planned in the understanding of how the whole network is reworked with HS2.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    > And its pretty much ready to go. Work is lined up and planed. Is it? Or does the plan need a bunch of revisions, to restore the link to Euston and address the cost over-runs? We all know there's not much money left. And politically speaking, Labour needs to give the north of england a fair deal on infrastructure spending, to shore up wavering support in red wall seats. HS2 is an exciting project that a lot of work has already been done on, it'd be totally cool if it did go ahead - but I'm not holding my breath.
    - panick21_ 2y ago
      There is quite a lot of work left in terms of detailed track planning. People that were working on that were all taken of the project. But this can be restarted, these projects are on-ice, not dead. Its certainty more ready then any potential large scale project in the North only. > We all know there's not much money left. Not sure what that means. > And politically speaking, Labour needs to give the north of england a fair deal on infrastructure spending HS2 is the best thing that can happen to the North, far better then any other possible prject. I'm not sure why you are not seeing this. Express trains to London are ruining all the local network on the traditional main lines, and thus all connected branch lines. HS2 will put all the express trains onto HS2. Meaning all of a sudden all the other lines have massive amounts of utilization free that can finally be used for regular regional and local travel.
      - michaelt 2y ago
        >> We all know there's not much money left. > Not sure what that means. What it means is: 1. The UK national debt is high, about 7% of public spending is on interest payments. The debt-to-GDP ratio is the worst it's been in 60 years. 2. The current overall tax rate is the highest it's been since the 1960s. We might be able to get some extra money by going after tax cheats and suchlike, but it's probably not going to be easy; we don't have the money yet. 3. Previously we've tried cutting back on public services to get the debt down - "austerity" as it was called - and it was not regarded as a big success. 4. In fact, there have been loads of strikes and a long period of under-investment in public services. So we could probably spend quite a chunk of money just stopping the roofs falling down on the schools we've already got, to say nothing of building anything new. 5. Previous attempts to move public debt off the books, like PFI contracts, turned out to cost the taxpayer more in the long term. 6. Truss attempted to spur GDP growth to improve the debt-to-GDP ratio, and it went terribly. 7. Individuals aren't any better, with the high levels of mortgage debt and student loan debt, rising fuel bills and a cost-of-living crisis. We're a hardy nation, we've dealt with worse and we'll get through this - but the reality is Starmer doesn't have a lot of cash to splash around.
DrBazza 2y ago
The old HS1 boss, said the main problem with HS2 goes was the government publicly announced the budget for each contract and the bidders bid... you guessed it right at the maximum of each contract. HS1 never announced any budget for any contract, so lots of bids came in way under what the government was prepared to spend, hence came in well under budget. I seem to recall that was also due to infrastructure 'transparency' and government 'openness' from the 00s. It got off to a bad start under Andrew Adonis in the dying days of the Blair/Brown administration, but people forget that. "Adonis himself is openly regretful. “HS2 should stop at Old Oak Common,” he told me, “interchanging with Crossrail there. We should leave open the question of going further into London.” As head of the Cameron’s national infrastructure commission, Adonis makes many speeches on these subjects. He nowadays lauds HS3, and lauds Old Oak Common as London’s greatest development opportunity. I have yet to hear him laud Euston. That station, he says, “is the poison at the heart of HS2. I bitterly regret not stopping it before I left office”." https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zombie-train-that-refuses-to-die https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zomb... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sunak-tory-conference-b2422922.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sun... > Mr Holden also said HS1 was successful because the true budget was known to just “a handful of people”, while HS2 contractors inflated their prices once they saw the latter project’s true budget.
- laurencerowe 2y ago
  The problem with stopping at Old Oak Common is that it would likely worsen end-end journey times for the many passengers travelling to destinations not well served by Crossrail. Euston/Kings Cross/St Pancras are all next door to each other and collectively busier than any other rail station in the country. They are not connected to Crossrail so anyone connecting on from there (Eurostar, east coast mainline, west coast mainline) would be required to make two additional changes, a pain with luggage. And anyone going to Norh or South London on Thameslink, Northern or Victoria lines would have to make an additional change.
  - chgs 2y ago
    Why would a hs2 user be connecting on from Euston? Or indeed from St Pancras (other than maybe Kent and Europe) But walking with a suitcase from Euston to KGSP isn’t exactly easy anyway. Only benefits to Euston are easy to get to the Victoria and northern lines. Whether that outweighs crossrail is a septye wuruain, maybe for north-south journeys, but probably not for “to London”.
Theodores 2y ago
I have a relative working on HS2. During the pandemic he was on zoom calls with five thousand people, none of whom were 'navvies'. He is car dependent, never uses the train and that money spent on HS2 to hire him has been spent on German cars and airline flights. If I was in charge of HS2 I would get the thousands that shuffle spreadsheets to get pickaxes out and build the whole thing going all the way to Birmingham and beyond to Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow.
smcl 2y ago
How on earth did Sunak have “sort of a correct aim” on HS2? He’s taken an infrastructure project which would have increased capacity north-to-south once all of it was delivered, which was heavily criticised for being “only a way to get to London slightly faster” … and cancelled enough of it so that it reduced capacity and then became only a way to get to London slightly faster but from ultimately quite a nearby city. All that for a fairly sizeable chunk of money, enough that they might as well complete it. He was desperately searching for a way to maybe gain votes that didn’t cost any extra money, and took a punt on axing half of HS2. It wasn’t a carefully calculated strategy, it was an attempt at a cheap vote-grab that was ultimately fruitless and will cost the UK public dearly in the long run.

goodcanadian 2y ago

I would love to see HS2 reinstated, but I agree that it is not likely at this time. There are likely higher priority projects that should go ahead first (some form of Northern Powerhouse, for example). At a minimum, though, I do hope that they protect the route for HS2 north of Birmingham even if construction is indefinitely deferred. It is going to be needed eventually.

panick21_ 2y ago
HS2 is by far the most important transportation project, it massively impacts the whole rail system. HS2 connects North and South like never before. And it massively improves what you can do with regional and local trains on the rest of the network. And its pretty much ready to go. Work is lined up and planed. All it needs is political support and funding. Other projects should be done, but they should be planned in the understanding of how the whole network is reworked with HS2.
- michaelt 2y ago
  > And its pretty much ready to go. Work is lined up and planed. Is it? Or does the plan need a bunch of revisions, to restore the link to Euston and address the cost over-runs? We all know there's not much money left. And politically speaking, Labour needs to give the north of england a fair deal on infrastructure spending, to shore up wavering support in red wall seats. HS2 is an exciting project that a lot of work has already been done on, it'd be totally cool if it did go ahead - but I'm not holding my breath.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    There is quite a lot of work left in terms of detailed track planning. People that were working on that were all taken of the project. But this can be restarted, these projects are on-ice, not dead. Its certainty more ready then any potential large scale project in the North only. > We all know there's not much money left. Not sure what that means. > And politically speaking, Labour needs to give the north of england a fair deal on infrastructure spending HS2 is the best thing that can happen to the North, far better then any other possible prject. I'm not sure why you are not seeing this. Express trains to London are ruining all the local network on the traditional main lines, and thus all connected branch lines. HS2 will put all the express trains onto HS2. Meaning all of a sudden all the other lines have massive amounts of utilization free that can finally be used for regular regional and local travel.
    - michaelt 2y ago
      >> We all know there's not much money left. > Not sure what that means. What it means is: 1. The UK national debt is high, about 7% of public spending is on interest payments. The debt-to-GDP ratio is the worst it's been in 60 years. 2. The current overall tax rate is the highest it's been since the 1960s. We might be able to get some extra money by going after tax cheats and suchlike, but it's probably not going to be easy; we don't have the money yet. 3. Previously we've tried cutting back on public services to get the debt down - "austerity" as it was called - and it was not regarded as a big success. 4. In fact, there have been loads of strikes and a long period of under-investment in public services. So we could probably spend quite a chunk of money just stopping the roofs falling down on the schools we've already got, to say nothing of building anything new. 5. Previous attempts to move public debt off the books, like PFI contracts, turned out to cost the taxpayer more in the long term. 6. Truss attempted to spur GDP growth to improve the debt-to-GDP ratio, and it went terribly. 7. Individuals aren't any better, with the high levels of mortgage debt and student loan debt, rising fuel bills and a cost-of-living crisis. We're a hardy nation, we've dealt with worse and we'll get through this - but the reality is Starmer doesn't have a lot of cash to splash around.

DrBazza 2y ago

The old HS1 boss, said the main problem with HS2 goes was the government publicly announced the budget for each contract and the bidders bid... you guessed it right at the maximum of each contract. HS1 never announced any budget for any contract, so lots of bids came in way under what the government was prepared to spend, hence came in well under budget. I seem to recall that was also due to infrastructure 'transparency' and government 'openness' from the 00s. It got off to a bad start under Andrew Adonis in the dying days of the Blair/Brown administration, but people forget that. "Adonis himself is openly regretful. “HS2 should stop at Old Oak Common,” he told me, “interchanging with Crossrail there. We should leave open the question of going further into London.” As head of the Cameron’s national infrastructure commission, Adonis makes many speeches on these subjects. He nowadays lauds HS3, and lauds Old Oak Common as London’s greatest development opportunity. I have yet to hear him laud Euston. That station, he says, “is the poison at the heart of HS2. I bitterly regret not stopping it before I left office”." https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zombie-train-that-refuses-to-die https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zomb... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sunak-tory-conference-b2422922.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sun... > Mr Holden also said HS1 was successful because the true budget was known to just “a handful of people”, while HS2 contractors inflated their prices once they saw the latter project’s true budget.

laurencerowe 2y ago
The problem with stopping at Old Oak Common is that it would likely worsen end-end journey times for the many passengers travelling to destinations not well served by Crossrail. Euston/Kings Cross/St Pancras are all next door to each other and collectively busier than any other rail station in the country. They are not connected to Crossrail so anyone connecting on from there (Eurostar, east coast mainline, west coast mainline) would be required to make two additional changes, a pain with luggage. And anyone going to Norh or South London on Thameslink, Northern or Victoria lines would have to make an additional change.
- chgs 2y ago
  Why would a hs2 user be connecting on from Euston? Or indeed from St Pancras (other than maybe Kent and Europe) But walking with a suitcase from Euston to KGSP isn’t exactly easy anyway. Only benefits to Euston are easy to get to the Victoria and northern lines. Whether that outweighs crossrail is a septye wuruain, maybe for north-south journeys, but probably not for “to London”.

Theodores 2y ago

I have a relative working on HS2. During the pandemic he was on zoom calls with five thousand people, none of whom were 'navvies'. He is car dependent, never uses the train and that money spent on HS2 to hire him has been spent on German cars and airline flights. If I was in charge of HS2 I would get the thousands that shuffle spreadsheets to get pickaxes out and build the whole thing going all the way to Birmingham and beyond to Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow.

smcl 2y ago

How on earth did Sunak have “sort of a correct aim” on HS2? He’s taken an infrastructure project which would have increased capacity north-to-south once all of it was delivered, which was heavily criticised for being “only a way to get to London slightly faster” … and cancelled enough of it so that it reduced capacity and then became only a way to get to London slightly faster but from ultimately quite a nearby city. All that for a fairly sizeable chunk of money, enough that they might as well complete it. He was desperately searching for a way to maybe gain votes that didn’t cost any extra money, and took a punt on axing half of HS2. It wasn’t a carefully calculated strategy, it was an attempt at a cheap vote-grab that was ultimately fruitless and will cost the UK public dearly in the long run.