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New Apple Macbook Pro RAM is soldered to the motherboard | Ian Chilton

131 points by ichilton 14y ago

jurre 14y ago
I kind of expected this as the Airs have the same, can anyone that knows a bit more about hardware maybe tell if this is because of space concerns?
- joelhaasnoot 14y ago
  RAM slots are big pieces of plastic and connector pins. Especially if you have two slots it just wouldn't fit in a laptop with that height.
  - keeperofdakeys 14y ago
    The original Samsung Series 9 is about 10% thinner and had two DIMM slots; the battery did take up a bit less space though. I'm sure it would have been possible to fit two SODIMM slots, it would just have cost more in terms of design and sale price.
- jlouis 14y ago
  I would guess it is due to a couple of factors: RAM can now be tested in one package on the motherboard and people can't accidentally change it. In the long run it may open some abilities w.r.t using RAM for other things since you know its exact clocking. The production is cheaper since the MB does not need an extra "install ram" step which is probably a human. You can probably win some height space by a couple of millimeters. You have more control over heating.
  - smcl 14y ago
    >> The production is cheaper since the MB does not need an extra "install ram" step which is probably a human. I suspect that's not true. I reckon it's more likely they're changing a "slot RAM into place" step with a "solder RAM into place" step. That said they'll probably be able to simplify the case and design the mainboard however they place, since they'll no longer need to provide easy access to the RAM slots.
    - tryp 14y ago
      The "solder RAM into place" step is handled by the pick-and-place machine at board manufacture time. Human hands are required only to load the machine.
    - ricardobeat 14y ago
      they had to "solder RAM slot to board" before "slot RAM into place"
- tryp 14y ago
  Soldering DRAMs to the board saves height and improves ruggedness. It can also improve memory power a tiny bit because you can dial down the signal drive strength and dial up the termination impedance since you don't have reflections at the socket connector. If you only have 1 rank, you can also improve memory latency by maybe a cycle by virtue of not having to accommodate parts at different distances from the memory controller. These additional benefits assume that Apple is one of the half-dozen or so companies with whom Intel is willing to open their memory controller documentation. The counter-intuitive thing to me about using memory-down (at scale orders of magnitude smaller than Apple) is that it can end up being way more expensive over the lifetime of the product. Module vendors can constantly shop and swap between DRAM manufacturers in order to lower their costs and module competition is fierce.
nicksergeant 14y ago
How is this news? I think it's well known that the new Retina-MBPs have made some hardware-upgradeability sacrifices in exchange for portability.
- uzero 14y ago
  My thoughts exactly. But I do think that if I would put over $2000 to a laptop I wouldn't like the fact that I'm not able to upgrade memory after few years. It's ok with devices like iPad but $2000 laptop is a device that you expect to use a bit longer.
  - culturestate 14y ago
    You can max it out with 16GB of RAM for an additional $200. I'm not sure I can see myself putting more than that into a laptop during its useful life.
    - nicksergeant 14y ago
      Exactly, and although similar statements have been made in the past, I think 16GB shall be sufficient for at least 5 years out.
      - ioquatix 14y ago
        I have a current MBP with both 8GB and 16GB of memory. I found that with 8GB, performance is excellent. With 16GB, I normally have about 6-7GB free - Mac OS X normally uses the rest for a filesystem cache but it doesn't really affect performance that much in my experience. 16GB is going to be enough for quite a while...
        wfarr 14y ago
        Not to mention, the glaring problem people like to ignore when discussing this is the motherboard in the MBP is only going to support so much memory anyway (would not be surprised if it could only support 16gb), so talking about not being able to upgrade it to 32/64/whatever is common then is kind of moot.
kristopher 14y ago
Good info and glad that I have not ordered yet! At the time I was thinking of buying the base model and upgrading the RAM after the fact.
rangibaby 14y ago
The mechanism Apple uses to allow user-replaceable RAM looks like it won't fit in the new case. (pic) [1] Apple have a habit of charging fairly outrageous prices for extra RAM - $375[2] for 16GB in the current Mac Pro, and that's not even for 8GB sticks. With that in mind, $200 for the upgrade to 16GB is not that bad, which is probably on purpose. [1] https://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270#link1 https://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270#link1 [2] http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MD770LL/A http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MD770LL/A
- dhimes 14y ago
  It has a funny psychological effect on me that I don't understand: when I see a premium, top-of-the-line (for whatever line you are interested in) machine, and they charge a little more to get it to the extra level (16 MB RAM), I feel like it cheapens the product. It kind of makes me think of it as second-rate. I get a similar feeling when looking at a luxury car for which a stylish interior is an upgrade. I feel like an awesome car wouldn't be sold without the stylish interior, therefore this car is less-than-awesome.
  - blablabla123 14y ago
    It's a matter of budget. When you think a 8 GB RAM Macbook Pro is cheap, maybe you should shop at sgi.com.
    - dhimes 14y ago
      I understand the part about the budget. I don't understand the part about the psychological effect. I don't even know what to call it. I find it curious.
      - blablabla123 14y ago
        In my experience 1 in 4 upgrades are crap. Thinking back 10 or more years ago when I stuffed my PC with expansion cards. Sometimes these cards did not work, particular candidates were Modems and TV cards. Actually even half of my RAM upgrades were adventures, sometimes I had to remove all of the RAM and put it back in. (WTF?) So this would be one explanation which I do experience. When I buy a Gadget and the cool stuff is hard-wired, this means to me: this Gadget is merged with the cool stuff.
its_so_on 14y ago
The real news is that they could shave as much of the macbook off as they actually did. Did you see the video? The screen display is now 'attached directly' to the unibody with no 'glass layer'. What does that even mean? Whatever it means, it's obviously not user-serviceable. I was amazed at how much they got off the macbook in size and weight - EDIT: everywhere, off the whole machine - and they're idiots for not putting this right next to the "retina display" in the tagline announcing it -- e.g. at www.apple.com now -- The headlines (here and elsewhere) didn't even emphasize the new sleek lightweight form factor. This shows Apple doesn't currently remember what Apple is. Apple makes, and should make, a big deal out of even a marginal reduction in weight or thickness. What this is is a miracle. we've just seen a miracle of engineering and Apple doesn't even think it worth mentioning on the front page. idiocy.
- loceng 14y ago
  They continue to clamp down on their controlled ecosystem business model. Benefits do come from standardization and not allowing users or unqualified service providers screwing around trying to fix things, though it increases costs then - and I am unsure which is worst. Standardization can exist without a controlled ecosystem.
- LinXitoW 14y ago
  It is impressive, but considering the obvious compromises(replaceable components and ports) and the probable compromises(harder serviceability) i wouldn't quite call it a miracle. I also don't understand what the rationale is behind sacrificing Pro features for size on a laptop marked "Pro".
  - netcan 14y ago
    My guess is that this isn't a macbook pro. Not for long. A fuckup or a compromise, but either way a departure from Apple's normally impeccably simple naming & branding of product lines. This is just a macbook. If all goes well and Apple can get prices down there might not be pros or airs anymore, just macbooks. In three sizes. I think Apple have somewhat of an aversion to having price be the only or main differentiator between products. That's why the old macbooks were scrapped. Pros were more powerful & Airs were more portable. Macbooks were only cheaper. Cheaper models can exist, but they have to have some unique advantage that'd make some users buy them regardless of price. The existence of a Macbook pro & a Macbook pro retina bends this rule. If a 13" air and a just-as-thin 13" pro retina both existed, it would break it.
Void_ 14y ago
Now you have to pay $350 extra for AppleCare unless you're the luckiest person in the world.
- Jimmie 14y ago
  The fourth year of AppleCare now costs 2 grand since every MBP will now self destruct in the fourth year :)
- 2muchcoffeeman 14y ago
  I have gotten same day turn around for a trackpad problem on my current MBP. I know others that have gotten similarly good service for their own devices. Have you ever tried to claim the warranty from other companies? If you rely heavily on a piece of equipment, $350 for really good support is a bargain.
newman314 14y ago
Anyone know if the storage is similarly locked down? I.e. if I need to pick the larger SSD at time of purchase?
- Xylakant 14y ago
  Sort of. The SSD is a custom board with a custom connector but it uses standard SSD components, pretty much the same as the AIR does. There are currently no third-party modules available but for the Air it didn't take long for some Vendors to sell some.
revelation 14y ago
People are worried about DRAM soldered to the motherboard? I'd be much more worried about the Flash that is, just as the RAM, also permanently soldered to the motherboard. With the wear-leveling most chipsets do nowadays, these things will just simultaneously drop dead in three years. edit: Took another look: http://imgur.com/x0I9x http://imgur.com/x0I9x It seems that they might indeed be exchangeable. Looked a lot like they were soldered on with the rest on a first glance.
- socialist_coder 14y ago
  The flash ssd is not soldered in from what I can tell. It's probably like the MBA where it has some kind of connector and is probably the only user serviceable part.
  - huxley 14y ago
    It's definitely not soldered in. OWC says that it is similar but probably not exactly the same as the one in the Macbook Air, they are looking at providing an upgrade model like they do for the Airs: http://blog.macsales.com/14090-not-a-lot-of-options-for-macbook-pro-w-retina-display http://blog.macsales.com/14090-not-a-lot-of-options-for-macb...
- Xylakant 14y ago
  From what I heard it's not soldered to the mainboard but a custom SSD-Like chip similar to the ones in the Macbook Air.
- toyg 14y ago
  Anandtech has the details. TL;DR: it's not soldered but the connector is brand-new and non-standard. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6003/the-new-macbook-air-uses-toshibas-sata-6gbs-ssds http://www.anandtech.com/show/6003/the-new-macbook-air-uses-...
dordoka 14y ago
Not only RAM, SSD is SATA III, but using a different form factor and a proprietary connector, a la Macbook Air. The new Air also changed the already proprietary connector from the 2011 models, rendering unusable the existing third party SSD upgrade options. Wondering if MacbookPro SSD connector are the same as the new Air's or not...
- cbsmith 14y ago
  I'm still kind of scratching my head about the use of SATA given these custom connectors. It keeps driver development simple, but at a cost in performance.
  - Xylakant 14y ago
    Well, not only driver development but also controller development. SATA is a standard where you can go buy the standard components. The connector probably has the same data lanes as a SATA connector, just a different form factor. Most of the space saving come from not having an enclosure like harddrives do - something which only words with SSDs since they have no moving parts and are thus dust-resistant.
    - dordoka 14y ago
      Yep, AnandTech did a review analyzing the SSD connector from the Air. Check it out: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5854/asus-zenbook-ssd-and-apples-macbook-air-ssd-are-not-compatible http://www.anandtech.com/show/5854/asus-zenbook-ssd-and-appl...
      - Xylakant 14y ago
        Thanks, that pretty much confirms what I've been writing. Same data lines, different connector layout. The comparison makes for an interesting read.
    - cbsmith 14y ago
      Most SSD <-> SATA interfaces are themselves essentially a bridge. You could instead directly wire in to the SSD's interface. It helps in a number of ways, as the SATA protocol was really not designed with SSD's in mind. Under the covers, SSD's are kind of this weird hybrid of RAM and storage devices.
jc-denton 14y ago
Go whine about something else. On GPUs RAM is soldered for performance reasons, this has been the case since ever. RAM nowadays is very reliable, so it makes sense to solder it. This leaves SSD as probably the least reliable part and that's why its replaceable.
codgercoder 14y ago
Apple would make you buy a new machine just to install a new application, if they could. I have confidence they will figure it out, in due time. There is, after all, tremendous pressure to maintain their revenue.
- powrtoch 14y ago
  I would say iOS already works like this. They push out OS updates to devices not capable of running them properly, and provide no easy path to roll back. Many non-technical users will just think their "old" phone has "gotten slow", as if that's the inevitable course that products take as they age. So they buy a new device. The App Store only makes this worse, since at any given time you can only download the most recent version of any app. So if you don't upgrade iOS, you find yourself increasingly unable to install any new apps. And all in all it seems very successful. There have only been 5 iterations of the iPhone over about 5 years, but how many people do you know that owned at least 3 of them?
  - stevejabs 14y ago
    I think your logic here is very flawed. I can name a ton of people who've owned only 1 or 2 iPhones since they've released. However that isn't even what I'm arguing about. Apple makes (in my opinion) a very smart decision to limit some features to only newer phones. Think about when iOS4 came out, it was only fully supported for the iPhone 4 and 3GS. Backgrounding on the 3G was a nightmare to memory and performance... so they cut it. You're saying they automatically lump in apps that make the device seem slow? I think they do the exact opposite. They make smart decisions to keep even 2 year old devices running like their brand new. Of course they want you to update to a new device every two years (every single manufacturer does, don't just blame Apple here) but they are the only company I've seen that doesn't hold a gun to your head to upgrade just to get a new OS. One thing I can always depend on with my iPhone, I'll likely see at least 3 major OS upgrades during my ownership. My Android phone (I own both) has only seen 1 major OS upgrade and very very very few incremental upgrades as well. The only reason why I have ICS on it is because of CyanogenMod.
    - 14y ago
masklinn 14y ago
> It stands to reason, when they do similar on the iOS products – the iPhone, iPad and iPod’s all have fixed storage and no way of using SD card’s, USB stick’s or change the battery like on competitors products, but RAM has always been upgradable. It's also soldered on the Air, unsurprising that they'd do the same on a small-factor MBP.
neilwillgettoit 14y ago
The #1 reason I'm completely okay with the RAM being soldered to the mobo: NO CHANCE FOR A COLD BOOT ATTACK.
gouranga 14y ago
Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case. Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that with a computer that I owned. My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sitting in one component waiting to fail and considering the warranty is a year (or 3 if you are extorted for even more cash by Apple for their expensive AppleCare service). First it was the batteries - now no longer replaceable by mere mortals, then the SSDs were brought in with proprietary interfaces, now the RAM is soldered on the board. In the average 5 year life span of a computer, I have found that you will need to replace the battery between 1-2 times, the memory will need to be upgraded at least once and the disk will need to be upgraded. These are observations but rational ones. I'm now sitting on a Lenovo T61 which is 5 years old. EVERY component in this machine can be replaced for literally nothing and very rapidly. Sorry but stuff like this is just pandering to consumerism if it is disposable by design. The design is retarded. EDIT: It appears the battery is GLUED in so that's not replaceable any more either, even with the aid of a screwdriver.
- henrikeh 14y ago
  Kind of off-topic: I've got a T60 with a broken graphics card (Honestly, not sure, but all evidence points in that direction). It still works, there just isn't any image on the internal monitor (and severe problems on external). Can I fix the graphics card? Nope, but I can still install another OS and keep it running until something truly critical fails.
  - gouranga 14y ago
    Nope but you can grab another T60 with broken screen or chassis off ebay for a few dollars and do a frankenstein job (takes about 30 minutes): http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116-FOR-SPARES-14-1-VERSION-/360464103857?pt=UK_Motherboards_CPUs&hash=item53ed55b9b1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116...
  - eli 14y ago
bradleyland 14y ago
I saw the DRAM chips in the WWDC keynote video and my first thought was, "Oh boy, the hackers are going to have an aneurism when they see this." I don't find it all that surprising. Apple has been slowly migrating all of their devices in the direction of appliances. The mass market doesn't upgrade the device, they replace it. That is where Apple is headed: the mass market. It's hard to argue that they're wrong when they're selling so many units as everyone else is in decline.
deleted 14y ago
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novalis 14y ago
If this is the case, that is the same reason why I never bought HP machines since opening one up in the 90's and seeing how someone had soldered the ram to the motherboard. That server test machine went back and I never bought anything from them, and now that short list has one more brand in it.
54mf 14y ago
These days, I purchase laptops with a life expectancy of around 2-3 years. By then, the tech will have advanced to far that I'll want a new one anyway, and prices are dropping to the point where I can justify spending $1000-1500 on a device I use 10 hours or more a day, and for my primary source of income. These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine.
- briguyd 14y ago
  The new Macbook isn't $1000-1500, its $2200+. >These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine. Seems like a waste of money for something that's an easy $100 upgrade on pretty much every other computer in use today.
jakeonthemove 14y ago
Come to think of it, soldering RAM isn't that hard - people were doing it with a cheap soldering station over a decade ago (increasing RAM on video cards). Seeing as this is the only design used in new Ultrabooks and will probably be prevalent in new laptops, those who want to upgrade will have to upgrade their tech skills.
trebor 14y ago
Well, I won't buy a system that isn't upgradeable. Developers have needs that scale faster than a consumer, and if I can't upgrade my RAM ... forget it. Though with 8GB RAM and an SSD, the CPU has suddenly become my slow-point.
darylteo 14y ago
I wouldn't have minded if it didn't cost $240 bucks just to upgrade the ram...
bobbywilson0 14y ago
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Display-Teardown/9462/1#.T9irVCtYveM http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ... - MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair). - Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside. - As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade. - The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future. - The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process. - The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly. EDITED: got rid of scroll per comment below
- okamiueru 14y ago
  The no scroll edition: * MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair). * Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside. * As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade. * The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future. * The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process. * The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.
  - bobbywilson0 14y ago
    Thanks. I was trying to make it look as though it was quoted but looks like I failed.
tibbon 14y ago
Time to test my soldering skills...
nicholassmith 14y ago
Here's my plan for the future: - I gave up non-Mac machines as I had no interest in replacing components and fiddling with hardware, so it being non-replaceable is fine for me. Sell it on eBay as spares/repairs, someone will be able to fix it. - Continue using the most 'general computing' laptops Apple make, which for me is the MBA. It handles all the general dev work I need to do. - Have a couple of cheap VPS' that have more computing capacity than I need on a general basis handy. Offsite the work there. I'm happy buying one because the way of the future is going to be almost the way of the past in my eyes. Sweet workstations that can handle the bulk of my daily digital needs, and big heavy stuff I can connect to happily that I don't need to do anything beyond pressing the shiny 'upgrade' button when I need to.
beej71 14y ago
If you look at the downside and upside for Apple, the decision makes perfect sense. And 8 GB should be OK for almost all their users for the next year or two.
pasbesoin 14y ago
"Right" or "wrong", Apple has been and is in the course of accruing all marginal expenses to its bottom line. Now, if you want "maxed storage", you'd better buy it at the time of purchase of the unit, from Apple, at Apple's price. You may agree or disagree; regardless, one should remain cognizant of the fact and how it contributes to Apple's monolithic presence within its segment of the market. P.S. This is not to discount the relevance of design decisions that limit physical accessibility: Slimness, edge-to-edge glass, etc., etc.
rsanchez1 14y ago
Great, now you can't even upgrade the RAM in Macbooks.

131 points by ichilton 14y ago

jurre 14y ago

I kind of expected this as the Airs have the same, can anyone that knows a bit more about hardware maybe tell if this is because of space concerns?

joelhaasnoot 14y ago
RAM slots are big pieces of plastic and connector pins. Especially if you have two slots it just wouldn't fit in a laptop with that height.
- keeperofdakeys 14y ago
  The original Samsung Series 9 is about 10% thinner and had two DIMM slots; the battery did take up a bit less space though. I'm sure it would have been possible to fit two SODIMM slots, it would just have cost more in terms of design and sale price.
jlouis 14y ago
I would guess it is due to a couple of factors: RAM can now be tested in one package on the motherboard and people can't accidentally change it. In the long run it may open some abilities w.r.t using RAM for other things since you know its exact clocking. The production is cheaper since the MB does not need an extra "install ram" step which is probably a human. You can probably win some height space by a couple of millimeters. You have more control over heating.
- smcl 14y ago
  >> The production is cheaper since the MB does not need an extra "install ram" step which is probably a human. I suspect that's not true. I reckon it's more likely they're changing a "slot RAM into place" step with a "solder RAM into place" step. That said they'll probably be able to simplify the case and design the mainboard however they place, since they'll no longer need to provide easy access to the RAM slots.
  - tryp 14y ago
    The "solder RAM into place" step is handled by the pick-and-place machine at board manufacture time. Human hands are required only to load the machine.
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    they had to "solder RAM slot to board" before "slot RAM into place"
tryp 14y ago
Soldering DRAMs to the board saves height and improves ruggedness. It can also improve memory power a tiny bit because you can dial down the signal drive strength and dial up the termination impedance since you don't have reflections at the socket connector. If you only have 1 rank, you can also improve memory latency by maybe a cycle by virtue of not having to accommodate parts at different distances from the memory controller. These additional benefits assume that Apple is one of the half-dozen or so companies with whom Intel is willing to open their memory controller documentation. The counter-intuitive thing to me about using memory-down (at scale orders of magnitude smaller than Apple) is that it can end up being way more expensive over the lifetime of the product. Module vendors can constantly shop and swap between DRAM manufacturers in order to lower their costs and module competition is fierce.

nicksergeant 14y ago

How is this news? I think it's well known that the new Retina-MBPs have made some hardware-upgradeability sacrifices in exchange for portability.

uzero 14y ago
My thoughts exactly. But I do think that if I would put over $2000 to a laptop I wouldn't like the fact that I'm not able to upgrade memory after few years. It's ok with devices like iPad but $2000 laptop is a device that you expect to use a bit longer.
- culturestate 14y ago
  You can max it out with 16GB of RAM for an additional $200. I'm not sure I can see myself putting more than that into a laptop during its useful life.
  - nicksergeant 14y ago
    Exactly, and although similar statements have been made in the past, I think 16GB shall be sufficient for at least 5 years out.
    - ioquatix 14y ago
      I have a current MBP with both 8GB and 16GB of memory. I found that with 8GB, performance is excellent. With 16GB, I normally have about 6-7GB free - Mac OS X normally uses the rest for a filesystem cache but it doesn't really affect performance that much in my experience. 16GB is going to be enough for quite a while...
      - wfarr 14y ago
        Not to mention, the glaring problem people like to ignore when discussing this is the motherboard in the MBP is only going to support so much memory anyway (would not be surprised if it could only support 16gb), so talking about not being able to upgrade it to 32/64/whatever is common then is kind of moot.

kristopher 14y ago

Good info and glad that I have not ordered yet! At the time I was thinking of buying the base model and upgrading the RAM after the fact.

rangibaby 14y ago

The mechanism Apple uses to allow user-replaceable RAM looks like it won't fit in the new case. (pic) [1] Apple have a habit of charging fairly outrageous prices for extra RAM - $375[2] for 16GB in the current Mac Pro, and that's not even for 8GB sticks. With that in mind, $200 for the upgrade to 16GB is not that bad, which is probably on purpose. [1] https://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270#link1 https://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270#link1 [2] http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MD770LL/A http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MD770LL/A

dhimes 14y ago
It has a funny psychological effect on me that I don't understand: when I see a premium, top-of-the-line (for whatever line you are interested in) machine, and they charge a little more to get it to the extra level (16 MB RAM), I feel like it cheapens the product. It kind of makes me think of it as second-rate. I get a similar feeling when looking at a luxury car for which a stylish interior is an upgrade. I feel like an awesome car wouldn't be sold without the stylish interior, therefore this car is less-than-awesome.
- blablabla123 14y ago
  It's a matter of budget. When you think a 8 GB RAM Macbook Pro is cheap, maybe you should shop at sgi.com.
  - dhimes 14y ago
    I understand the part about the budget. I don't understand the part about the psychological effect. I don't even know what to call it. I find it curious.
    - blablabla123 14y ago
      In my experience 1 in 4 upgrades are crap. Thinking back 10 or more years ago when I stuffed my PC with expansion cards. Sometimes these cards did not work, particular candidates were Modems and TV cards. Actually even half of my RAM upgrades were adventures, sometimes I had to remove all of the RAM and put it back in. (WTF?) So this would be one explanation which I do experience. When I buy a Gadget and the cool stuff is hard-wired, this means to me: this Gadget is merged with the cool stuff.

its_so_on 14y ago

The real news is that they could shave as much of the macbook off as they actually did. Did you see the video? The screen display is now 'attached directly' to the unibody with no 'glass layer'. What does that even mean? Whatever it means, it's obviously not user-serviceable. I was amazed at how much they got off the macbook in size and weight - EDIT: everywhere, off the whole machine - and they're idiots for not putting this right next to the "retina display" in the tagline announcing it -- e.g. at www.apple.com now -- The headlines (here and elsewhere) didn't even emphasize the new sleek lightweight form factor. This shows Apple doesn't currently remember what Apple is. Apple makes, and should make, a big deal out of even a marginal reduction in weight or thickness. What this is is a miracle. we've just seen a miracle of engineering and Apple doesn't even think it worth mentioning on the front page. idiocy.

loceng 14y ago
They continue to clamp down on their controlled ecosystem business model. Benefits do come from standardization and not allowing users or unqualified service providers screwing around trying to fix things, though it increases costs then - and I am unsure which is worst. Standardization can exist without a controlled ecosystem.
LinXitoW 14y ago
It is impressive, but considering the obvious compromises(replaceable components and ports) and the probable compromises(harder serviceability) i wouldn't quite call it a miracle. I also don't understand what the rationale is behind sacrificing Pro features for size on a laptop marked "Pro".
- netcan 14y ago
  My guess is that this isn't a macbook pro. Not for long. A fuckup or a compromise, but either way a departure from Apple's normally impeccably simple naming & branding of product lines. This is just a macbook. If all goes well and Apple can get prices down there might not be pros or airs anymore, just macbooks. In three sizes. I think Apple have somewhat of an aversion to having price be the only or main differentiator between products. That's why the old macbooks were scrapped. Pros were more powerful & Airs were more portable. Macbooks were only cheaper. Cheaper models can exist, but they have to have some unique advantage that'd make some users buy them regardless of price. The existence of a Macbook pro & a Macbook pro retina bends this rule. If a 13" air and a just-as-thin 13" pro retina both existed, it would break it.

Void_ 14y ago

Now you have to pay $350 extra for AppleCare unless you're the luckiest person in the world.

Jimmie 14y ago
The fourth year of AppleCare now costs 2 grand since every MBP will now self destruct in the fourth year :)
2muchcoffeeman 14y ago
I have gotten same day turn around for a trackpad problem on my current MBP. I know others that have gotten similarly good service for their own devices. Have you ever tried to claim the warranty from other companies? If you rely heavily on a piece of equipment, $350 for really good support is a bargain.

newman314 14y ago

Anyone know if the storage is similarly locked down? I.e. if I need to pick the larger SSD at time of purchase?

Xylakant 14y ago
Sort of. The SSD is a custom board with a custom connector but it uses standard SSD components, pretty much the same as the AIR does. There are currently no third-party modules available but for the Air it didn't take long for some Vendors to sell some.

revelation 14y ago

People are worried about DRAM soldered to the motherboard? I'd be much more worried about the Flash that is, just as the RAM, also permanently soldered to the motherboard. With the wear-leveling most chipsets do nowadays, these things will just simultaneously drop dead in three years. edit: Took another look: http://imgur.com/x0I9x http://imgur.com/x0I9x It seems that they might indeed be exchangeable. Looked a lot like they were soldered on with the rest on a first glance.

socialist_coder 14y ago
The flash ssd is not soldered in from what I can tell. It's probably like the MBA where it has some kind of connector and is probably the only user serviceable part.
- huxley 14y ago
  It's definitely not soldered in. OWC says that it is similar but probably not exactly the same as the one in the Macbook Air, they are looking at providing an upgrade model like they do for the Airs: http://blog.macsales.com/14090-not-a-lot-of-options-for-macbook-pro-w-retina-display http://blog.macsales.com/14090-not-a-lot-of-options-for-macb...
Xylakant 14y ago
From what I heard it's not soldered to the mainboard but a custom SSD-Like chip similar to the ones in the Macbook Air.
toyg 14y ago
Anandtech has the details. TL;DR: it's not soldered but the connector is brand-new and non-standard. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6003/the-new-macbook-air-uses-toshibas-sata-6gbs-ssds http://www.anandtech.com/show/6003/the-new-macbook-air-uses-...

dordoka 14y ago

Not only RAM, SSD is SATA III, but using a different form factor and a proprietary connector, a la Macbook Air. The new Air also changed the already proprietary connector from the 2011 models, rendering unusable the existing third party SSD upgrade options. Wondering if MacbookPro SSD connector are the same as the new Air's or not...

cbsmith 14y ago
I'm still kind of scratching my head about the use of SATA given these custom connectors. It keeps driver development simple, but at a cost in performance.
- Xylakant 14y ago
  Well, not only driver development but also controller development. SATA is a standard where you can go buy the standard components. The connector probably has the same data lanes as a SATA connector, just a different form factor. Most of the space saving come from not having an enclosure like harddrives do - something which only words with SSDs since they have no moving parts and are thus dust-resistant.
  - dordoka 14y ago
    Yep, AnandTech did a review analyzing the SSD connector from the Air. Check it out: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5854/asus-zenbook-ssd-and-apples-macbook-air-ssd-are-not-compatible http://www.anandtech.com/show/5854/asus-zenbook-ssd-and-appl...
    - Xylakant 14y ago
      Thanks, that pretty much confirms what I've been writing. Same data lines, different connector layout. The comparison makes for an interesting read.
  - cbsmith 14y ago
    Most SSD <-> SATA interfaces are themselves essentially a bridge. You could instead directly wire in to the SSD's interface. It helps in a number of ways, as the SATA protocol was really not designed with SSD's in mind. Under the covers, SSD's are kind of this weird hybrid of RAM and storage devices.

jc-denton 14y ago

Go whine about something else. On GPUs RAM is soldered for performance reasons, this has been the case since ever. RAM nowadays is very reliable, so it makes sense to solder it. This leaves SSD as probably the least reliable part and that's why its replaceable.

codgercoder 14y ago

Apple would make you buy a new machine just to install a new application, if they could. I have confidence they will figure it out, in due time. There is, after all, tremendous pressure to maintain their revenue.

powrtoch 14y ago
I would say iOS already works like this. They push out OS updates to devices not capable of running them properly, and provide no easy path to roll back. Many non-technical users will just think their "old" phone has "gotten slow", as if that's the inevitable course that products take as they age. So they buy a new device. The App Store only makes this worse, since at any given time you can only download the most recent version of any app. So if you don't upgrade iOS, you find yourself increasingly unable to install any new apps. And all in all it seems very successful. There have only been 5 iterations of the iPhone over about 5 years, but how many people do you know that owned at least 3 of them?
- stevejabs 14y ago
  I think your logic here is very flawed. I can name a ton of people who've owned only 1 or 2 iPhones since they've released. However that isn't even what I'm arguing about. Apple makes (in my opinion) a very smart decision to limit some features to only newer phones. Think about when iOS4 came out, it was only fully supported for the iPhone 4 and 3GS. Backgrounding on the 3G was a nightmare to memory and performance... so they cut it. You're saying they automatically lump in apps that make the device seem slow? I think they do the exact opposite. They make smart decisions to keep even 2 year old devices running like their brand new. Of course they want you to update to a new device every two years (every single manufacturer does, don't just blame Apple here) but they are the only company I've seen that doesn't hold a gun to your head to upgrade just to get a new OS. One thing I can always depend on with my iPhone, I'll likely see at least 3 major OS upgrades during my ownership. My Android phone (I own both) has only seen 1 major OS upgrade and very very very few incremental upgrades as well. The only reason why I have ICS on it is because of CyanogenMod.
  - 14y ago

masklinn 14y ago

> It stands to reason, when they do similar on the iOS products – the iPhone, iPad and iPod’s all have fixed storage and no way of using SD card’s, USB stick’s or change the battery like on competitors products, but RAM has always been upgradable. It's also soldered on the Air, unsurprising that they'd do the same on a small-factor MBP.

neilwillgettoit 14y ago

The #1 reason I'm completely okay with the RAM being soldered to the mobo: NO CHANCE FOR A COLD BOOT ATTACK.

gouranga 14y ago

Sorry but you have got to be a fucking idiot to buy one to be honest if that is the case. Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that with a computer that I owned. My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sitting in one component waiting to fail and considering the warranty is a year (or 3 if you are extorted for even more cash by Apple for their expensive AppleCare service). First it was the batteries - now no longer replaceable by mere mortals, then the SSDs were brought in with proprietary interfaces, now the RAM is soldered on the board. In the average 5 year life span of a computer, I have found that you will need to replace the battery between 1-2 times, the memory will need to be upgraded at least once and the disk will need to be upgraded. These are observations but rational ones. I'm now sitting on a Lenovo T61 which is 5 years old. EVERY component in this machine can be replaced for literally nothing and very rapidly. Sorry but stuff like this is just pandering to consumerism if it is disposable by design. The design is retarded. EDIT: It appears the battery is GLUED in so that's not replaceable any more either, even with the aid of a screwdriver.

henrikeh 14y ago
Kind of off-topic: I've got a T60 with a broken graphics card (Honestly, not sure, but all evidence points in that direction). It still works, there just isn't any image on the internal monitor (and severe problems on external). Can I fix the graphics card? Nope, but I can still install another OS and keep it running until something truly critical fails.
- gouranga 14y ago
  Nope but you can grab another T60 with broken screen or chassis off ebay for a few dollars and do a frankenstein job (takes about 30 minutes): http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116-FOR-SPARES-14-1-VERSION-/360464103857?pt=UK_Motherboards_CPUs&hash=item53ed55b9b1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116...
- eli 14y ago

bradleyland 14y ago

I saw the DRAM chips in the WWDC keynote video and my first thought was, "Oh boy, the hackers are going to have an aneurism when they see this." I don't find it all that surprising. Apple has been slowly migrating all of their devices in the direction of appliances. The mass market doesn't upgrade the device, they replace it. That is where Apple is headed: the mass market. It's hard to argue that they're wrong when they're selling so many units as everyone else is in decline.

deleted 14y ago

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novalis 14y ago

If this is the case, that is the same reason why I never bought HP machines since opening one up in the 90's and seeing how someone had soldered the ram to the motherboard. That server test machine went back and I never bought anything from them, and now that short list has one more brand in it.

54mf 14y ago

These days, I purchase laptops with a life expectancy of around 2-3 years. By then, the tech will have advanced to far that I'll want a new one anyway, and prices are dropping to the point where I can justify spending $1000-1500 on a device I use 10 hours or more a day, and for my primary source of income. These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine.

briguyd 14y ago
The new Macbook isn't $1000-1500, its $2200+. >These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine. Seems like a waste of money for something that's an easy $100 upgrade on pretty much every other computer in use today.

jakeonthemove 14y ago

Come to think of it, soldering RAM isn't that hard - people were doing it with a cheap soldering station over a decade ago (increasing RAM on video cards). Seeing as this is the only design used in new Ultrabooks and will probably be prevalent in new laptops, those who want to upgrade will have to upgrade their tech skills.

trebor 14y ago

Well, I won't buy a system that isn't upgradeable. Developers have needs that scale faster than a consumer, and if I can't upgrade my RAM ... forget it. Though with 8GB RAM and an SSD, the CPU has suddenly become my slow-point.

darylteo 14y ago

I wouldn't have minded if it didn't cost $240 bucks just to upgrade the ram...

bobbywilson0 14y ago

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Display-Teardown/9462/1#.T9irVCtYveM http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ... - MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair). - Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside. - As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade. - The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future. - The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process. - The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly. EDITED: got rid of scroll per comment below

okamiueru 14y ago
The no scroll edition: * MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair). * Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside. * As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade. * The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future. * The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process. * The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.
- bobbywilson0 14y ago
  Thanks. I was trying to make it look as though it was quoted but looks like I failed.

tibbon 14y ago

Time to test my soldering skills...

nicholassmith 14y ago

Here's my plan for the future: - I gave up non-Mac machines as I had no interest in replacing components and fiddling with hardware, so it being non-replaceable is fine for me. Sell it on eBay as spares/repairs, someone will be able to fix it. - Continue using the most 'general computing' laptops Apple make, which for me is the MBA. It handles all the general dev work I need to do. - Have a couple of cheap VPS' that have more computing capacity than I need on a general basis handy. Offsite the work there. I'm happy buying one because the way of the future is going to be almost the way of the past in my eyes. Sweet workstations that can handle the bulk of my daily digital needs, and big heavy stuff I can connect to happily that I don't need to do anything beyond pressing the shiny 'upgrade' button when I need to.

beej71 14y ago

If you look at the downside and upside for Apple, the decision makes perfect sense. And 8 GB should be OK for almost all their users for the next year or two.

pasbesoin 14y ago

"Right" or "wrong", Apple has been and is in the course of accruing all marginal expenses to its bottom line. Now, if you want "maxed storage", you'd better buy it at the time of purchase of the unit, from Apple, at Apple's price. You may agree or disagree; regardless, one should remain cognizant of the fact and how it contributes to Apple's monolithic presence within its segment of the market. P.S. This is not to discount the relevance of design decisions that limit physical accessibility: Slimness, edge-to-edge glass, etc., etc.

rsanchez1 14y ago

Great, now you can't even upgrade the RAM in Macbooks.