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Honestly, this is not surprising. - A lot of Tesla competitors have caught up (outside of self driving) and energized their sections of the EV market. I see wa

by dagmx 2y ago

Honestly, this is not surprising. - A lot of Tesla competitors have caught up (outside of self driving) and energized their sections of the EV market. I see way more Korean EVs on the road than ever before for example. - EV growth is slowing due to various factors, but so are cars in general due to economic issues. - Elon opened up the NACS as a gambit for not having to change their own chargers. NACS won, but a lot of prospective EV buyers are waiting for NACS native vehicles from other manufacturers. - Elon has really alienated massive chunks of the EV demographic. Identity politics are inherently tumultuous. As a launch batch Model Y owner myself, I’m definitely looking elsewhere whenever this car needs replacing. I want more comfort and just a better driving experience (turn signal stalks, an instrument cluster etc in the more accessible models) and the only reason I went with Tesla is the charging network is unmatched in NA. I do not have a very rosy outlook on Tesla as long as Elon remains in charge. He got it where it is, but he’s increasingly a liability.

mullingitover 2y ago
> - Elon has really alienated massive chunks of the EV demographic. Identity politics are inherently tumultuous. This is such a gigantic unforced error, it alone is really grounds for his dismissal. The CEO of Rivian might have some terrible opinions, too. I wouldn't know because he's not out there all day, every day telling the world about them.
- marcusverus 2y ago
  > This is such a gigantic unforced error No doubt. > it alone is really grounds for his dismissal. Tesla shareholders have the most skin in this game, and based on the recent pay-package vote, they strongly disagree.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    > based on the recent pay-package vote, they strongly disagree. Indeed, it's almost as if everyone knows the fundamentals are weak, it's 90% a meme stock, and they're afraid that taking away the magic part-time CEO will end the meme.
mbreese 2y ago
To add to this: - There aren't compelling new models to sell to existing customers. If you bought (not leased) a Tesla, there isn't much reason why you might want to upgrade. How long as the current Model S design been around? Even though there is an updated Model 3, it's really hard to tell from the exterior design. The changes were subtle. - The interiors are still less "fancy" than other cars in their peer group. And with more cars in that premium EV peer group, interior design is important. - The constant price changes really messed with resale values. When Tesla is about to have a bad quarter, they drop prices substantially. This in effect makes all current used Teslas less valuable. This drops their resale value, which in turn (a) makes current owners angry, and (b) makes it so that current owners have less money on a trade-in to buy a new car. In my mind, the company is still learning how to be a car company. They've shown that they can make cars (pretty high quality). But they haven't really shown that they can sell multiple cars to a customer.
- dagmx 2y ago
  The third point is also why I don’t trust Elon’s leadership anymore. It’s too impetuous these days. This is true of how he runs Twitter as well as Tesla. The first two points are also very true and emblematic of a company following their impulsive leaders whims. The biggest refreshes any of their models have gotten since launch are either very negatively received (yoke without steer by wire, removal of stalks) or have been cost cutting measures. Highland Model 3s barely moved the needle for anyone who isn’t an active Tesla observer. All their resources have gone into the cybertruck and robotaxi. I disagree though that they’re learning to be a car company. I think they have shown they can sell multiple models. However the problem is they have poor leadership. They’re now stuck in the same rut as many of the Japanese brands are when they hyper focused on certain aspects of their business. Elon is hyper focused on cutting costs and refreshing their models goes against that. Whatever mid life crisis has entrenched this immature side of him is reflected in the company. It needs to mature itself into a company that can deliver across the board in the way they used to innovate and I don’t think they can do that with him at the helm any longer.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  > There aren't compelling new models to sell to existing customers. Environmentally that's kinda the best. Selling boring models in the millions is better than VW's 20 different models with 100 options. Same model means easier repairs, more accessories, better secondary market.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
> A lot of Tesla competitors have caught up Ummm, what? If you look at luxury segment where price is not a question - sure. But compare the bottom of market and Tesla always has best trim for second-to-cheapest price. Finally, who is buying them competitors? I.e. Hyundai in US sells same number of EVs per year that Tesla sells per week.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > Finally, who is buying them competitors? I.e. Hyundai in US sells same number of EVs per year that Tesla sells per week That might be more compelling if the US were the only market for electric cars; in fact it is the smallest and least mature of the big three, after China and Europe. And the trend in the US market definitely seems to be moving more towards the European market; a bunch of manufacturers with 10-20% share. This is what you'd _expect_ as the market matures; the idea that one manufacturer would be able to maintain a functional monopoly on something like this was always a little fanciful.

by dagmx 2y ago

mullingitover 2y ago

> - Elon has really alienated massive chunks of the EV demographic. Identity politics are inherently tumultuous. This is such a gigantic unforced error, it alone is really grounds for his dismissal. The CEO of Rivian might have some terrible opinions, too. I wouldn't know because he's not out there all day, every day telling the world about them.

marcusverus 2y ago
> This is such a gigantic unforced error No doubt. > it alone is really grounds for his dismissal. Tesla shareholders have the most skin in this game, and based on the recent pay-package vote, they strongly disagree.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > based on the recent pay-package vote, they strongly disagree. Indeed, it's almost as if everyone knows the fundamentals are weak, it's 90% a meme stock, and they're afraid that taking away the magic part-time CEO will end the meme.

mbreese 2y ago

To add to this: - There aren't compelling new models to sell to existing customers. If you bought (not leased) a Tesla, there isn't much reason why you might want to upgrade. How long as the current Model S design been around? Even though there is an updated Model 3, it's really hard to tell from the exterior design. The changes were subtle. - The interiors are still less "fancy" than other cars in their peer group. And with more cars in that premium EV peer group, interior design is important. - The constant price changes really messed with resale values. When Tesla is about to have a bad quarter, they drop prices substantially. This in effect makes all current used Teslas less valuable. This drops their resale value, which in turn (a) makes current owners angry, and (b) makes it so that current owners have less money on a trade-in to buy a new car. In my mind, the company is still learning how to be a car company. They've shown that they can make cars (pretty high quality). But they haven't really shown that they can sell multiple cars to a customer.

dagmx 2y ago
The third point is also why I don’t trust Elon’s leadership anymore. It’s too impetuous these days. This is true of how he runs Twitter as well as Tesla. The first two points are also very true and emblematic of a company following their impulsive leaders whims. The biggest refreshes any of their models have gotten since launch are either very negatively received (yoke without steer by wire, removal of stalks) or have been cost cutting measures. Highland Model 3s barely moved the needle for anyone who isn’t an active Tesla observer. All their resources have gone into the cybertruck and robotaxi. I disagree though that they’re learning to be a car company. I think they have shown they can sell multiple models. However the problem is they have poor leadership. They’re now stuck in the same rut as many of the Japanese brands are when they hyper focused on certain aspects of their business. Elon is hyper focused on cutting costs and refreshing their models goes against that. Whatever mid life crisis has entrenched this immature side of him is reflected in the company. It needs to mature itself into a company that can deliver across the board in the way they used to innovate and I don’t think they can do that with him at the helm any longer.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
> There aren't compelling new models to sell to existing customers. Environmentally that's kinda the best. Selling boring models in the millions is better than VW's 20 different models with 100 options. Same model means easier repairs, more accessories, better secondary market.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

> A lot of Tesla competitors have caught up Ummm, what? If you look at luxury segment where price is not a question - sure. But compare the bottom of market and Tesla always has best trim for second-to-cheapest price. Finally, who is buying them competitors? I.e. Hyundai in US sells same number of EVs per year that Tesla sells per week.

rsynnott 2y ago
> Finally, who is buying them competitors? I.e. Hyundai in US sells same number of EVs per year that Tesla sells per week That might be more compelling if the US were the only market for electric cars; in fact it is the smallest and least mature of the big three, after China and Europe. And the trend in the US market definitely seems to be moving more towards the European market; a bunch of manufacturers with 10-20% share. This is what you'd _expect_ as the market matures; the idea that one manufacturer would be able to maintain a functional monopoly on something like this was always a little fanciful.