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"he's being consistent even if it hurts him and his shareholders" That is not a luxury CEOs get. They do not have a free hand to run companies, they are hired

"he's being consistent even if it hurts him and his shareholders" That is not a luxury CEOs get. They do not have a free hand to run companies, they are hired by boards of directors who represent the shareholders. His job is to work for the benefit of shareholders, and if he can't do that then it's simply a case of firing him.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Tesla did what it needed to do: force the world towards EVs. If it dies, legacy auto and BYD will carry on. It will be a shame if Tesla dies because the board didn’t have the will to push Elon out (wrt the brand, its stationary storage business, and ~120k global employees), such is the peril of poor corporate governance. I cancelled my Cybertruck res, and after buying four Teslas, I will not spend another dime on one until Elon is gone. Tesla is, hopefully, forced into self preservation by market fundamentals.
- newZWhoDis 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I support you spending your fiat as you see fit, and will encourage you all the way to the bank, your feelings costing you a chunk of change you can hopefully afford to part with. We vote with our purchasing power, and I support your right to vote. I hope you can respect my vote to not further empower a terrible human. I also upvoted your comment and will vouch for it as well, shared perspective is important, even if contrarian or deviating materially from a consensus.
  - gotstad 2y ago
    I think you might be underestimating how many potential customers are unwilling to buy from Tesla after Elon Musk decided to openly support the MAGA wing of republicans. Not sure why that makes you more inclined to buy a Tesla or flip someone the bird?
DaoVeles 2y ago
It seems like the current board is stacked with Musk suppoters. So things will have to get very bad before they will push him out.
throw0101d 2y ago
> His job is to work for the benefit of shareholders, and if he can't do that then it's simply a case of firing him. I was under the impression that the fiduciary duty was to the company/corporation. At least that's the case in Canada (2008 SCC 69): * https://www.fasken.com/en/knowledge/doing-business-in-canada/10-directors-officers-liability https://www.fasken.com/en/knowledge/doing-business-in-canada... (Further, legally speaking, the shareholders are not legally the owners of a company, just another type of stakeholder.)
- p_l 2y ago
  There's a Feynman brain virus that reshapes "fiduciary duty" as "profit for shareholders uber alles". While institutional shareholders generally mean your boss is an excel sheet seeking profit, the only "duty" to shareholders is still "do not defraud them". They can, of course, seek to change the board though...
  - throwaway5752 2y ago
    That is right in theory, wrong in practice. You can go to jail if you violate your fiduciary responsibility, you can also fulfil your fiduciary duties and easily lose your CEO job if you do not prioritize shareholder returns. I'm talking about publicly traded US based companies, like Tesla. This is how proxy advisory services like ISS and Glass Lewis, and board politics in general work. Tesla has defied the rules for a long time, because of the massive cred for innovation and value creation that Musk has accrued over time. That is finite.
    - decafninja 2y ago
      How much room is there for interpretation though? I mean, can Musk argue that he legitimately believes battling the woke mind virus is for the benefit of Tesla shareholders and their returns on investment and thus fulfilling his fiduciary duty?
      - p_l 2y ago
        In theory shareholders can vote pretty much as they want regarding removal and approval of CEOs. Breach of fiduciary duty however would be if CEO intentionally defrauded then of their value (essentially, through intentional bad care for the company)
bagels 2y ago
The board of Tesla represents Musk. Their actions lay this bare. They would have fired him after he attempted (and later succeeded) to extort Tesla.
pandaman 2y ago
If the CEO has to work for the shareholders benefit even outside the work then what about the rank-and-file? Should not all the Amazon employees be forced to shop only at amazon.com and WFM? Should not all Microsoft employees use only Microsoft software? Should all Google employees use Pixel phones and Netflix employees fired for subscribing to competitor streaming services or buying movie tickets? I think your expectations of loyalty might be a bit exaggerated. A job is a job. Whether as a CEO or as a warehouse picker, it's not one's life.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  That you, Steve Ballmer? (He used to get very upset when Microsoft employees used iPhones, apparently). But no, _employees_ of a company do not have the same fiduciary duties towards a company that its officers do.
  - pandaman 2y ago
    Officers are employees too. At what level do you make distinction?
    - veleek 2y ago
      All officers are employees, but not all employees are officers. C-suite employees are all officers at least. I’m not sure how far below that it expands.
      - pandaman 2y ago
        So it's just the name of the position? Somebody with a title of "chief nutritional officer" has to live for the employer and somebody doing the same job with the title of "associate project manager" doing the same job of ordering lunches can have a life? I mean, nothing stops you from making it into job requirements in your company, but, apparently, this is not a requirement at Tesla...
        2y ago
quantified 2y ago
The evidence does not show these directors doing anything but giving Musk a free hand. Textbook notions don't apply to Tesla.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Tesla did what it needed to do: force the world towards EVs. If it dies, legacy auto and BYD will carry on. It will be a shame if Tesla dies because the board didn’t have the will to push Elon out (wrt the brand, its stationary storage business, and ~120k global employees), such is the peril of poor corporate governance. I cancelled my Cybertruck res, and after buying four Teslas, I will not spend another dime on one until Elon is gone. Tesla is, hopefully, forced into self preservation by market fundamentals.

newZWhoDis 2y ago
[flagged]
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I support you spending your fiat as you see fit, and will encourage you all the way to the bank, your feelings costing you a chunk of change you can hopefully afford to part with. We vote with our purchasing power, and I support your right to vote. I hope you can respect my vote to not further empower a terrible human. I also upvoted your comment and will vouch for it as well, shared perspective is important, even if contrarian or deviating materially from a consensus.
- gotstad 2y ago
  I think you might be underestimating how many potential customers are unwilling to buy from Tesla after Elon Musk decided to openly support the MAGA wing of republicans. Not sure why that makes you more inclined to buy a Tesla or flip someone the bird?

DaoVeles 2y ago

It seems like the current board is stacked with Musk suppoters. So things will have to get very bad before they will push him out.

throw0101d 2y ago

> His job is to work for the benefit of shareholders, and if he can't do that then it's simply a case of firing him. I was under the impression that the fiduciary duty was to the company/corporation. At least that's the case in Canada (2008 SCC 69): * https://www.fasken.com/en/knowledge/doing-business-in-canada/10-directors-officers-liability https://www.fasken.com/en/knowledge/doing-business-in-canada... (Further, legally speaking, the shareholders are not legally the owners of a company, just another type of stakeholder.)

p_l 2y ago
There's a Feynman brain virus that reshapes "fiduciary duty" as "profit for shareholders uber alles". While institutional shareholders generally mean your boss is an excel sheet seeking profit, the only "duty" to shareholders is still "do not defraud them". They can, of course, seek to change the board though...
- throwaway5752 2y ago
  That is right in theory, wrong in practice. You can go to jail if you violate your fiduciary responsibility, you can also fulfil your fiduciary duties and easily lose your CEO job if you do not prioritize shareholder returns. I'm talking about publicly traded US based companies, like Tesla. This is how proxy advisory services like ISS and Glass Lewis, and board politics in general work. Tesla has defied the rules for a long time, because of the massive cred for innovation and value creation that Musk has accrued over time. That is finite.
  - decafninja 2y ago
    How much room is there for interpretation though? I mean, can Musk argue that he legitimately believes battling the woke mind virus is for the benefit of Tesla shareholders and their returns on investment and thus fulfilling his fiduciary duty?
    - p_l 2y ago
      In theory shareholders can vote pretty much as they want regarding removal and approval of CEOs. Breach of fiduciary duty however would be if CEO intentionally defrauded then of their value (essentially, through intentional bad care for the company)

bagels 2y ago

The board of Tesla represents Musk. Their actions lay this bare. They would have fired him after he attempted (and later succeeded) to extort Tesla.

pandaman 2y ago

If the CEO has to work for the shareholders benefit even outside the work then what about the rank-and-file? Should not all the Amazon employees be forced to shop only at amazon.com and WFM? Should not all Microsoft employees use only Microsoft software? Should all Google employees use Pixel phones and Netflix employees fired for subscribing to competitor streaming services or buying movie tickets? I think your expectations of loyalty might be a bit exaggerated. A job is a job. Whether as a CEO or as a warehouse picker, it's not one's life.

rsynnott 2y ago
That you, Steve Ballmer? (He used to get very upset when Microsoft employees used iPhones, apparently). But no, _employees_ of a company do not have the same fiduciary duties towards a company that its officers do.
- pandaman 2y ago
  Officers are employees too. At what level do you make distinction?
  - veleek 2y ago
    All officers are employees, but not all employees are officers. C-suite employees are all officers at least. I’m not sure how far below that it expands.
    - pandaman 2y ago
      So it's just the name of the position? Somebody with a title of "chief nutritional officer" has to live for the employer and somebody doing the same job with the title of "associate project manager" doing the same job of ordering lunches can have a life? I mean, nothing stops you from making it into job requirements in your company, but, apparently, this is not a requirement at Tesla...
      - 2y ago

quantified 2y ago

The evidence does not show these directors doing anything but giving Musk a free hand. Textbook notions don't apply to Tesla.