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Coming from a German part of Poland[1] to Warsaw, a Russian city, it actually seems conservative. It was the first place I saw someone pray the rosary on public

Coming from a German part of Poland[1] to Warsaw, a Russian city, it actually seems conservative. It was the first place I saw someone pray the rosary on public transport... kneeling. It blew my mind. There is also a lot of fetishisation of its history by conservatives, since history in Polish schools is told in a very martyr way, and history of Warsaw, its monuments and all that play well into it. If anything, it’s a very good place for conservatives. [1]: partitions and other shenanigans of Polish history.

panzagl 2y ago
> since history in Polish schools is told in a very martyr way I think that's the perception of Polish history pretty much everywhere except Russia, Ukraine, maybe Lithuania? I'm genuinely curious as to what other theories of Polish history exist, especially in Poland.
- thrw087248 2y ago
  I think outside of Poland people think of it as a victim mostly in the context of the XX century, but inside, the martyrology begins much earlier and was the leading ideological current in the XIX century. It just seems we have a long tradition of not wanting to own up to our faults, always ready to blame someone else for our misfortunes. This also jives with the catholic doctrine of noble suffering. Personally I’m a fan of taking responsibility. And in the context of falling into partitions we did have a role in that internally the country was a mess, conflicted and for sale. We could learn something from our western neighbours when it comes to forming some unity and valuing work/grit over aristocratic navel-gazing.
  - panzagl 2y ago
    I would argue most of the mess of the 17th-18th centuries comes from not having a strong centralized government at a time when that meant having an absolute monarch or emperor. Sure the back-biting oligarchy was not ideal, but neither was the alternative, at least to most modern audiences. Getting it's act together as a nation would have been an anachronistic thought until well after the first partition. So while wallowing in victimhood isn't helpful, neither are/were Poland's issues entirely self-inflicted.
  - ido 2y ago
    One somewhat weird aspect of it I encountered: my Polish grandfather (born in Łódź in the 1920s and fled as a refugee at the beginning of WW2) always told of how his experience growing up Jewish in Poland was that Poles were virulently antisemitic and he didn’t really consider them any better than the Nazis (on that specific account). I multiple times had exchanges online where Poles absolutely refused to acknowledge any antisemitism was ever present and that everything was the Germans’ fault (to the point where if there was any it was “due to German influences” and other such weird reasoning). I don’t consider anyone at fault for something their ancestors did, I just didn’t expect such total denial of wrongdoings before encountering it.
    - krzyk 2y ago
      It is something that was present everywhere. People tend to value their own group than the other. Jews tended to keep to themselves, which had two reasons: they were forced to by laws in many countries (e.g. Ashkenazi group evolved to have good math skills mostly because they were forbidden from owning land etc. but were allowed to be merchants) and by Jews themselves tending to one another and keeping outsiders out (which is quite natural for any group, but not to that extent). Consider what happens in most cases when w given ethnicity moves out of their country - they integrate in century or two (see USA). Jews do not, at least orthodox ones (which were majority before I think). Similar thing happens with other immigrants - if they don't integrate, they are feared. If they have different religion even more so. Countries outside of Germany during (and before) WWII didn't have state level killings of those "alien" groups.
    - futureshock 2y ago
      It can be illegal to ague otherwise. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42898882.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42898882.amp
    - Tade0 2y ago
      > I multiple times had exchanges online where Poles absolutely refused to acknowledge any antisemitism was ever present and that everything was the Germans’ fault Perhaps it's just that antisemitism didn't stand out among other -isms and frankly paled in comparison to nazi industrialized genocide. Make no mistake - it was there - but pre-WW2 Poland was actually fairly diverse with ethnic Poles being 69% of the population and the rest consisting of (population numbers in descending order) Ukrainians, Jews, Belarusians and Germans. It was a melting pot of mutual antipathy. Case in point: to this day in literature there are two terms for the largest of these minorities - Ukrainians and the Rus' (the generally agreed on definition notwithstanding), the difference being that the latter did not display ambitions of forming an independent state. For a fledgling state any such notion was of course dangerous and Ukrainians were treated in accordance to that (badly).
  - badpun 2y ago
    Poland was partitioned in XVIII century by three similarly backwards neighboring Eastern European powers: Russia, Prussia and Austria. They were more efficient that Poland though, because they were ruled by ruthless tyrants, while Poland was a democracy of the nobles, with all the worst traits that can occur in democracies (triumph of small egoisms, power and votes for sale, domination of politics by few richest oligarchs who don’t care about the country etc.). It’s basically a great pre-modern era cautionary tale of how a democracy can degenerate to the levels of complete state failure.
stratocumulus0 2y ago
Regarding the rosary, I would rather guess Warsaw being the seat of government attracts lots of fringe types who come there to protest. I've last been living there in 2019 and I remember that the political climate was already heating up back then, with religious groups protesting in various places spontaneously - groups with loudspeakers at entrances to public transit, trucks driving around blasting anti-gay slogans all day, random marches of people in knight gowns carrying that certain picture of Jesus in a lavish crown that's a dogwhistle among certain ultra-religious groups - I've seen all of that, and still I would consider Warsaw to be overwhelmingly liberal in comaprison to the rest of the country. One exception is the city's football team of course - but football in this country is synonymous with ultra-nationalism.
surfingdino 2y ago
Ever been to Oxford Street in London where one preacher or another is banging on about god?

panzagl 2y ago

> since history in Polish schools is told in a very martyr way I think that's the perception of Polish history pretty much everywhere except Russia, Ukraine, maybe Lithuania? I'm genuinely curious as to what other theories of Polish history exist, especially in Poland.

thrw087248 2y ago
I think outside of Poland people think of it as a victim mostly in the context of the XX century, but inside, the martyrology begins much earlier and was the leading ideological current in the XIX century. It just seems we have a long tradition of not wanting to own up to our faults, always ready to blame someone else for our misfortunes. This also jives with the catholic doctrine of noble suffering. Personally I’m a fan of taking responsibility. And in the context of falling into partitions we did have a role in that internally the country was a mess, conflicted and for sale. We could learn something from our western neighbours when it comes to forming some unity and valuing work/grit over aristocratic navel-gazing.
- panzagl 2y ago
  I would argue most of the mess of the 17th-18th centuries comes from not having a strong centralized government at a time when that meant having an absolute monarch or emperor. Sure the back-biting oligarchy was not ideal, but neither was the alternative, at least to most modern audiences. Getting it's act together as a nation would have been an anachronistic thought until well after the first partition. So while wallowing in victimhood isn't helpful, neither are/were Poland's issues entirely self-inflicted.
- ido 2y ago
  One somewhat weird aspect of it I encountered: my Polish grandfather (born in Łódź in the 1920s and fled as a refugee at the beginning of WW2) always told of how his experience growing up Jewish in Poland was that Poles were virulently antisemitic and he didn’t really consider them any better than the Nazis (on that specific account). I multiple times had exchanges online where Poles absolutely refused to acknowledge any antisemitism was ever present and that everything was the Germans’ fault (to the point where if there was any it was “due to German influences” and other such weird reasoning). I don’t consider anyone at fault for something their ancestors did, I just didn’t expect such total denial of wrongdoings before encountering it.
  - krzyk 2y ago
    It is something that was present everywhere. People tend to value their own group than the other. Jews tended to keep to themselves, which had two reasons: they were forced to by laws in many countries (e.g. Ashkenazi group evolved to have good math skills mostly because they were forbidden from owning land etc. but were allowed to be merchants) and by Jews themselves tending to one another and keeping outsiders out (which is quite natural for any group, but not to that extent). Consider what happens in most cases when w given ethnicity moves out of their country - they integrate in century or two (see USA). Jews do not, at least orthodox ones (which were majority before I think). Similar thing happens with other immigrants - if they don't integrate, they are feared. If they have different religion even more so. Countries outside of Germany during (and before) WWII didn't have state level killings of those "alien" groups.
  - futureshock 2y ago
    It can be illegal to ague otherwise. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42898882.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42898882.amp
  - Tade0 2y ago
    > I multiple times had exchanges online where Poles absolutely refused to acknowledge any antisemitism was ever present and that everything was the Germans’ fault Perhaps it's just that antisemitism didn't stand out among other -isms and frankly paled in comparison to nazi industrialized genocide. Make no mistake - it was there - but pre-WW2 Poland was actually fairly diverse with ethnic Poles being 69% of the population and the rest consisting of (population numbers in descending order) Ukrainians, Jews, Belarusians and Germans. It was a melting pot of mutual antipathy. Case in point: to this day in literature there are two terms for the largest of these minorities - Ukrainians and the Rus' (the generally agreed on definition notwithstanding), the difference being that the latter did not display ambitions of forming an independent state. For a fledgling state any such notion was of course dangerous and Ukrainians were treated in accordance to that (badly).
- badpun 2y ago
  Poland was partitioned in XVIII century by three similarly backwards neighboring Eastern European powers: Russia, Prussia and Austria. They were more efficient that Poland though, because they were ruled by ruthless tyrants, while Poland was a democracy of the nobles, with all the worst traits that can occur in democracies (triumph of small egoisms, power and votes for sale, domination of politics by few richest oligarchs who don’t care about the country etc.). It’s basically a great pre-modern era cautionary tale of how a democracy can degenerate to the levels of complete state failure.

stratocumulus0 2y ago

Regarding the rosary, I would rather guess Warsaw being the seat of government attracts lots of fringe types who come there to protest. I've last been living there in 2019 and I remember that the political climate was already heating up back then, with religious groups protesting in various places spontaneously - groups with loudspeakers at entrances to public transit, trucks driving around blasting anti-gay slogans all day, random marches of people in knight gowns carrying that certain picture of Jesus in a lavish crown that's a dogwhistle among certain ultra-religious groups - I've seen all of that, and still I would consider Warsaw to be overwhelmingly liberal in comaprison to the rest of the country. One exception is the city's football team of course - but football in this country is synonymous with ultra-nationalism.

surfingdino 2y ago

Ever been to Oxford Street in London where one preacher or another is banging on about god?