4 ms·

And when does Mephistopheles chime in? I’m fascinated by the idea of doping in general, and there seems to be two distinct kinds: 1) something that everyone is

by sctb 2y ago

And when does Mephistopheles chime in? I’m fascinated by the idea of doping in general, and there seems to be two distinct kinds: 1) something that everyone is doing (e.g. EPO at the Tour de France or AAS in bodybuilding) and 2) something that will give you an actual edge. “Motor doping” seems to be an example of the latter. It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame.

OrigamiPastrami 2y ago
> It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame. If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. It has nothing to do with honor - it's just about winning. Cheating may be lame but it's a reality. It's not just limited to sports either. In fact I can't think of anywhere I studied/worked where cheaters/liars didn't get ahead (I know multiple cheating students who got into MIT for grad school, and I know multiple abusive liars who were consistently promoted at unicorn startups or FAANG while simultaneously working to get their honest coworkers fired). Such is life.
- sctb 2y ago
  > If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. I put that in category #1, which isn't exactly cheating because it doesn't buy you an advantage. Cheating at school or at work is an interesting example. Perhaps by the time cyclists are considering motorizing it's just like... a job? And you have to win to eat?
  - sethhochberg 2y ago
    I certainly don't condone cheating in sports but I have to imagine the sponsorship income and general notoriety opportunities are substantially different for someone who can make it into the top 20 or so of their division vs someone who "only" makes the top 100 or 500. Maybe you get into that top 100 and think you're _so close_ to being one of the people who are both elite at the sport and famous/paid generously for doing it, instead of just quietly and honestly elite.
    - throwup238 2y ago
      That's especially true for winning a medal at the Olympics since it's the only event that non-fans can recognize in most sports. You have to know at least a little bit about bike racing to know that the Tour de France is the most prestigious event but everyone recognizes "Olympic gold medal," doesn't even matter what sport. People also get really nationalistic about their nation's winners so it opens a lot of non-sports-related doors back home. It's the kind of victory an athlete can easily parlay into a cushy sales or consultant position where they don't have to work very hard after their athletic career is over.
      - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
        > You have to know at least a little bit about bike racing to know that the Tour de France is the most prestigious event but everyone recognizes "Olympic gold medal," doesn't even matter what sport. This depends a lot on which part of the audience (in particular nationality) you are talking about. I'd say that in Germany (and of course in France) the Tour de France is much more famous for road cycling than the Summer Olympic Games.
        throwup238 2y ago
        It may be more famous here or there but the point is that everyone recognizes the Olympics, regardless of how tuned into sports they are.
JohnMakin 2y ago
> It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame. If you have devoted your entire life to a particular sport enough to compete and make a living in it, there inevitably will come a time when your ability to compete is not enough, whether that's due to declining ability or increased competition. When faced with the decision of ending a career or cheating, it is not too surprising that people could choose the latter. Of course there are many other reasons for cheating, but I imagine that to be a common motivator.
- sctb 2y ago
  > When faced with the decision of ending a career or cheating, it is not too surprising that people could choose the latter. I do find it a bit surprising, myself.
  - JohnMakin 2y ago
    > I do find it a bit surprising, myself. Ok let me phrase it perhaps in a more relatable way - Your employer asks you to do an unethical or illegal thing. Not doing so will result in you losing your livelihood. Doing so presents a small but measurable risk to you, but you keep your livelihood unless caught, in which case you lose your livelihood anyway. Do you think there is a significant subset of people that take the first choice?
    - sctb 2y ago
      I find it surprising that athletes would choose to make a drastic departure from their prior intentions of fair competition in order to attempt to avoid the inevitability of retirement. I don’t find it nearly as surprising that someone would make a bite-sized compromise in order to preserve their livelihood, even though it seems unwise to me. Sport qua job has a different feel than sport qua sport, as a sibling commenter illuminated.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
TheCondor 2y ago
What's boggling about it? Cycling is a really good example because it is so stark: 1) If you win you make more money, probably a lot more money. I don't know the current numbers, but during the Armstrong years there were plenty of Tour de France level riders that worked wrenching bikes to make ends meet and lived with their parents in the off season. You had Lance on private jets, and then guys on the team making under $30k supporting him. 2) Genetics is huge, you can do everything possible and simply not be good enough, if you've dedicated a big chunk of your life to this dream, you've won at every level, you live a completely monastic lifestyle and constantly diet and you reach your limit the desire to get just a little bit better is strong. The drugs work. 3) If enough people believe that "everyone is doing it" then the psychology of cheating disappears. 4) There is no external pressure or risk; the teams and sponsors don't get burned. When Lance won on a Trek they went from being something like a $200m company to a $2.5B company. They may very well have played a part in it, perhaps unbeknownst to them, but they never had any jeopardy. They're talking about what is physiologically possible after this year's Tour, it was a complete ass kicking. If your competition is doing things that are believed impossible, do you hang it up? accept defeat? Or rationalize that a few watts isn't really cheating since he's doing something impossible?
- sctb 2y ago
  Doping as table stakes is understandable. Money too, after a while. But I genuinely wonder how an athlete who put a motor in their bike and then accepted the resulting victory would feel about themselves as a competitor and a person. If they were stoked then by all means go for it, but in that case they must have a different psyche than I do.
nemo44x 2y ago
Mechanical cheating is pretty common in sports where it’s viable. NASCAR crews were always finding ways to cheat so much that the saying “if you’re not cheating you’re not trying” was said without irony. Baseball has a history of guys corking their bats and when caught the excuse is always that the practice bat got mixed in.
sorenjan 2y ago
I seem to recall that the most common type of doping is actually to increase recovery, both to make it easier to train hard again the next day and to recover from injuries faster. Apparently it's pretty common in football (soccer) to get injured players back in action, and that's not a sport that most people would think benefits a lot from the classic doping types that increase muscle mass or endurance. Sure they run and have some physical contact, but not that much.
beAbU 2y ago
There are people who cheat in fucking tetris competitions. What do you mean your mind is boggled that pro cyclists cheat? Some people will literally sell their grandmothers if it brings them an inch closer to worldwide fame and fortune.

by sctb 2y ago

OrigamiPastrami 2y ago

> It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame. If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. It has nothing to do with honor - it's just about winning. Cheating may be lame but it's a reality. It's not just limited to sports either. In fact I can't think of anywhere I studied/worked where cheaters/liars didn't get ahead (I know multiple cheating students who got into MIT for grad school, and I know multiple abusive liars who were consistently promoted at unicorn startups or FAANG while simultaneously working to get their honest coworkers fired). Such is life.

sctb 2y ago
> If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. I put that in category #1, which isn't exactly cheating because it doesn't buy you an advantage. Cheating at school or at work is an interesting example. Perhaps by the time cyclists are considering motorizing it's just like... a job? And you have to win to eat?
- sethhochberg 2y ago
  I certainly don't condone cheating in sports but I have to imagine the sponsorship income and general notoriety opportunities are substantially different for someone who can make it into the top 20 or so of their division vs someone who "only" makes the top 100 or 500. Maybe you get into that top 100 and think you're _so close_ to being one of the people who are both elite at the sport and famous/paid generously for doing it, instead of just quietly and honestly elite.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    That's especially true for winning a medal at the Olympics since it's the only event that non-fans can recognize in most sports. You have to know at least a little bit about bike racing to know that the Tour de France is the most prestigious event but everyone recognizes "Olympic gold medal," doesn't even matter what sport. People also get really nationalistic about their nation's winners so it opens a lot of non-sports-related doors back home. It's the kind of victory an athlete can easily parlay into a cushy sales or consultant position where they don't have to work very hard after their athletic career is over.
    - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
      > You have to know at least a little bit about bike racing to know that the Tour de France is the most prestigious event but everyone recognizes "Olympic gold medal," doesn't even matter what sport. This depends a lot on which part of the audience (in particular nationality) you are talking about. I'd say that in Germany (and of course in France) the Tour de France is much more famous for road cycling than the Summer Olympic Games.
      - throwup238 2y ago
        It may be more famous here or there but the point is that everyone recognizes the Olympics, regardless of how tuned into sports they are.

JohnMakin 2y ago

> It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame. If you have devoted your entire life to a particular sport enough to compete and make a living in it, there inevitably will come a time when your ability to compete is not enough, whether that's due to declining ability or increased competition. When faced with the decision of ending a career or cheating, it is not too surprising that people could choose the latter. Of course there are many other reasons for cheating, but I imagine that to be a common motivator.

sctb 2y ago
> When faced with the decision of ending a career or cheating, it is not too surprising that people could choose the latter. I do find it a bit surprising, myself.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  > I do find it a bit surprising, myself. Ok let me phrase it perhaps in a more relatable way - Your employer asks you to do an unethical or illegal thing. Not doing so will result in you losing your livelihood. Doing so presents a small but measurable risk to you, but you keep your livelihood unless caught, in which case you lose your livelihood anyway. Do you think there is a significant subset of people that take the first choice?
  - sctb 2y ago
    I find it surprising that athletes would choose to make a drastic departure from their prior intentions of fair competition in order to attempt to avoid the inevitability of retirement. I don’t find it nearly as surprising that someone would make a bite-sized compromise in order to preserve their livelihood, even though it seems unwise to me. Sport qua job has a different feel than sport qua sport, as a sibling commenter illuminated.
xanderlewis 2y ago

TheCondor 2y ago

What's boggling about it? Cycling is a really good example because it is so stark: 1) If you win you make more money, probably a lot more money. I don't know the current numbers, but during the Armstrong years there were plenty of Tour de France level riders that worked wrenching bikes to make ends meet and lived with their parents in the off season. You had Lance on private jets, and then guys on the team making under $30k supporting him. 2) Genetics is huge, you can do everything possible and simply not be good enough, if you've dedicated a big chunk of your life to this dream, you've won at every level, you live a completely monastic lifestyle and constantly diet and you reach your limit the desire to get just a little bit better is strong. The drugs work. 3) If enough people believe that "everyone is doing it" then the psychology of cheating disappears. 4) There is no external pressure or risk; the teams and sponsors don't get burned. When Lance won on a Trek they went from being something like a $200m company to a $2.5B company. They may very well have played a part in it, perhaps unbeknownst to them, but they never had any jeopardy. They're talking about what is physiologically possible after this year's Tour, it was a complete ass kicking. If your competition is doing things that are believed impossible, do you hang it up? accept defeat? Or rationalize that a few watts isn't really cheating since he's doing something impossible?

sctb 2y ago
Doping as table stakes is understandable. Money too, after a while. But I genuinely wonder how an athlete who put a motor in their bike and then accepted the resulting victory would feel about themselves as a competitor and a person. If they were stoked then by all means go for it, but in that case they must have a different psyche than I do.

nemo44x 2y ago

Mechanical cheating is pretty common in sports where it’s viable. NASCAR crews were always finding ways to cheat so much that the saying “if you’re not cheating you’re not trying” was said without irony. Baseball has a history of guys corking their bats and when caught the excuse is always that the practice bat got mixed in.

sorenjan 2y ago

I seem to recall that the most common type of doping is actually to increase recovery, both to make it easier to train hard again the next day and to recover from injuries faster. Apparently it's pretty common in football (soccer) to get injured players back in action, and that's not a sport that most people would think benefits a lot from the classic doping types that increase muscle mass or endurance. Sure they run and have some physical contact, but not that much.

beAbU 2y ago

There are people who cheat in fucking tetris competitions. What do you mean your mind is boggled that pro cyclists cheat? Some people will literally sell their grandmothers if it brings them an inch closer to worldwide fame and fortune.