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What's the trainer-athlete conversation like that leads up to installing such devices?

by kelseyfrog 2y ago

reallymental 2y ago
Both parties want to win. There's no such conversation, they're all in it to win it. Do whatever it takes.
- willcipriano 2y ago
  Just show up one day and your bike has an unexplained button on it that makes you go fast?
  - brookst 2y ago
    Sure, for training purposes. You know, on a long ride, you don’t want to overdo it. Of course, the actual race bike needs the button for verisimilitude, and it would be a big mistake if a batter was left in, and…
    - kelseyfrog 2y ago
      Surely there are certain logistics, like making sure it's charged before the race, or asking, "wouldn't I perform better by losing the extra weight?" being brought up before, no?
      - recursive 2y ago
        There's a UCI minimum weight for competition bikes at 6.8kg. We can't remove the button, as that would put us under the weight limit.
        kelseyfrog 2y ago
        That's funny. Thank you for explaining it
        to11mtm 2y ago
        Even as far back as 2005-2006 there were stories of riders taping wrenches to bikes to get to the requisite weight, it's not even a new thing per se.
        recursive 2y ago
        I've heard stories of freezing ice inside the seatpost. It will stay frozen long enough to pass the pre-race weigh-in, but melt away before the start of the big climb.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        jessekv 2y ago
        Another reason for those thermal cameras.
legitster 2y ago
I cannot strongly recommend enough the documentary Icarus, which starts out with the premise of "how hard is it to ask for steroids" and spirals into completely insane territory from there.
- nl 2y ago
  It's one of the best (and surprising!) documentaries ever.
- sorenjan 2y ago
  Specifically about how Russia (Putin) wanted to look good by making their athletes stronger for their Sochi olympics. The soviet union was also known for doping their athletes for propaganda purposes.
sctb 2y ago
And when does Mephistopheles chime in? I’m fascinated by the idea of doping in general, and there seems to be two distinct kinds: 1) something that everyone is doing (e.g. EPO at the Tour de France or AAS in bodybuilding) and 2) something that will give you an actual edge. “Motor doping” seems to be an example of the latter. It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame.
- OrigamiPastrami 2y ago
  > It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame. If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. It has nothing to do with honor - it's just about winning. Cheating may be lame but it's a reality. It's not just limited to sports either. In fact I can't think of anywhere I studied/worked where cheaters/liars didn't get ahead (I know multiple cheating students who got into MIT for grad school, and I know multiple abusive liars who were consistently promoted at unicorn startups or FAANG while simultaneously working to get their honest coworkers fired). Such is life.
  - sctb 2y ago
    > If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. I put that in category #1, which isn't exactly cheating because it doesn't buy you an advantage. Cheating at school or at work is an interesting example. Perhaps by the time cyclists are considering motorizing it's just like... a job? And you have to win to eat?
    - sethhochberg 2y ago
      I certainly don't condone cheating in sports but I have to imagine the sponsorship income and general notoriety opportunities are substantially different for someone who can make it into the top 20 or so of their division vs someone who "only" makes the top 100 or 500. Maybe you get into that top 100 and think you're _so close_ to being one of the people who are both elite at the sport and famous/paid generously for doing it, instead of just quietly and honestly elite.
alistairSH 2y ago
The same as the conversation that leads to athletes doping their bodies. Somebody in the athlete’s inner circle suggests “hey, you’d be faster/stronger if you did X…” and it goes from there.
- KeplerBoy 2y ago
  Motor doping is somewhat different imho. It's a ballsy move to propose something like "hey, you'd be a faster cyclist if you rode a motorbike". After all with conventional doping it was still your body, sweat and pain.
nemo44x 2y ago
It’s pretty rational really. You can linger in mediocrity always at risk of being replaced or you could take PEDs and either become competitive and important or get caught and be replaced, the same outcome as not using. Especially if you came from dirt. It’s all upside if you can’t compete without.
- buttercraft 2y ago
  Well, unless you value honesty and integrity.

What's the trainer-athlete conversation like that leads up to installing such devices?

reallymental 2y ago

Both parties want to win. There's no such conversation, they're all in it to win it. Do whatever it takes.

willcipriano 2y ago
Just show up one day and your bike has an unexplained button on it that makes you go fast?
- brookst 2y ago
  Sure, for training purposes. You know, on a long ride, you don’t want to overdo it. Of course, the actual race bike needs the button for verisimilitude, and it would be a big mistake if a batter was left in, and…
  - kelseyfrog 2y ago
    Surely there are certain logistics, like making sure it's charged before the race, or asking, "wouldn't I perform better by losing the extra weight?" being brought up before, no?
    - recursive 2y ago
      There's a UCI minimum weight for competition bikes at 6.8kg. We can't remove the button, as that would put us under the weight limit.
      - kelseyfrog 2y ago
        That's funny. Thank you for explaining it
        to11mtm 2y ago
        Even as far back as 2005-2006 there were stories of riders taping wrenches to bikes to get to the requisite weight, it's not even a new thing per se.
        recursive 2y ago
        I've heard stories of freezing ice inside the seatpost. It will stay frozen long enough to pass the pre-race weigh-in, but melt away before the start of the big climb.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        jessekv 2y ago
        Another reason for those thermal cameras.

legitster 2y ago

I cannot strongly recommend enough the documentary Icarus, which starts out with the premise of "how hard is it to ask for steroids" and spirals into completely insane territory from there.

nl 2y ago
It's one of the best (and surprising!) documentaries ever.
sorenjan 2y ago
Specifically about how Russia (Putin) wanted to look good by making their athletes stronger for their Sochi olympics. The soviet union was also known for doping their athletes for propaganda purposes.

sctb 2y ago

And when does Mephistopheles chime in? I’m fascinated by the idea of doping in general, and there seems to be two distinct kinds: 1) something that everyone is doing (e.g. EPO at the Tour de France or AAS in bodybuilding) and 2) something that will give you an actual edge. “Motor doping” seems to be an example of the latter. It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame.

OrigamiPastrami 2y ago
> It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame. If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. It has nothing to do with honor - it's just about winning. Cheating may be lame but it's a reality. It's not just limited to sports either. In fact I can't think of anywhere I studied/worked where cheaters/liars didn't get ahead (I know multiple cheating students who got into MIT for grad school, and I know multiple abusive liars who were consistently promoted at unicorn startups or FAANG while simultaneously working to get their honest coworkers fired). Such is life.
- sctb 2y ago
  > If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. I put that in category #1, which isn't exactly cheating because it doesn't buy you an advantage. Cheating at school or at work is an interesting example. Perhaps by the time cyclists are considering motorizing it's just like... a job? And you have to win to eat?
  - sethhochberg 2y ago
    I certainly don't condone cheating in sports but I have to imagine the sponsorship income and general notoriety opportunities are substantially different for someone who can make it into the top 20 or so of their division vs someone who "only" makes the top 100 or 500. Maybe you get into that top 100 and think you're _so close_ to being one of the people who are both elite at the sport and famous/paid generously for doing it, instead of just quietly and honestly elite.

alistairSH 2y ago

The same as the conversation that leads to athletes doping their bodies. Somebody in the athlete’s inner circle suggests “hey, you’d be faster/stronger if you did X…” and it goes from there.

KeplerBoy 2y ago
Motor doping is somewhat different imho. It's a ballsy move to propose something like "hey, you'd be a faster cyclist if you rode a motorbike". After all with conventional doping it was still your body, sweat and pain.

nemo44x 2y ago

It’s pretty rational really. You can linger in mediocrity always at risk of being replaced or you could take PEDs and either become competitive and important or get caught and be replaced, the same outcome as not using. Especially if you came from dirt. It’s all upside if you can’t compete without.

buttercraft 2y ago
Well, unless you value honesty and integrity.