4 ms·

Isn't this still just "show, don't tell"? Why are we trying to coin a new term and muddy waters? "Tell" implies some form of structured information such as mus

Isn't this still just "show, don't tell"? Why are we trying to coin a new term and muddy waters? "Tell" implies some form of structured information such as music notation. "Show" implies action(s) such as actually playing the piano. Showing is usually engaging otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.

nuancebydefault 2y ago
> Showing is usually engaging otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place. The problem is, e.g. if you as a teacher show music notation and show low, high, short, long notes on a blackboard, the student will forget what is shown if it does not fulfill a rather short term goal. Engaging would be playing the piano together while watching and listening. The feedback loop of gratification is much shorter and we animals are programmed to learn well from short positive/negative feedback loops.
- Sirizarry 2y ago
  But that definition of engaging is already what showing means in “show, don’t tell”. There’s no reason to give it a new term and thus again muddying the waters of understanding
- jahewson 2y ago
  Hmm, surely “show” in this context would be “play” and “tell” would be “write it down”. I think you took the phrasing a bit too literally.
soneca 2y ago
I think inviting the person to play is much more engaging than just showing them you playing. Showing the music notation to the student = tell Playing the music to the student = show Letting the student play the music = engage Makes sense to me
- mecsred 2y ago
  But the reason they are a student is because they can't play the music. Showing them the notations and demonstrating how to play it are steps towards them playing it themselves.
  - soneca 2y ago
    Not necessarily. Especially the notations are certainly not a necessary step towards the student playing. Playing for them, sure. But you can play once and invite them to play. Not keeping showing until you think they learned.
    - mecsred 2y ago
      Sure, you can have them learn by ear or learn by sheet, both possible. According to the analogy you can't do engage without doing either show or tell. Which one doesn't matter.
- hinkley 2y ago
  High barrier to entry skills like playing a piano don't conduct themselves well to random unguided exploration. And in music there is often a warning that doing so may ultimately restrict your potential in the field. Internal martial arts has the same warning. Across pretty much all disciplines in the field, the message is that you can only learn these skills kinesthetically. Not talking, not seeing, but feeling instructor corrections with your own body.
  - Sirizarry 2y ago
    Im not sure why that’s a common sentiment but I disagree that unguided exploration in music is not conducive to productive learning. Or maybe you’re just talking specifically about classical piano which I guess sure that makes sense but the piano is way more versatile than that and I encourage anybody to pick up a keyboard and just explore. You’ll be shocked how much you can accomplish and theory is always there to learn later once it becomes relevant to you.
kynetic 2y ago
It's a semantics debate all around, but the article's main point is that "show" suggests a mere demonstration, whereas "engage" implies active participation by the learner in the process of learning.

nuancebydefault 2y ago

> Showing is usually engaging otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place. The problem is, e.g. if you as a teacher show music notation and show low, high, short, long notes on a blackboard, the student will forget what is shown if it does not fulfill a rather short term goal. Engaging would be playing the piano together while watching and listening. The feedback loop of gratification is much shorter and we animals are programmed to learn well from short positive/negative feedback loops.

Sirizarry 2y ago
But that definition of engaging is already what showing means in “show, don’t tell”. There’s no reason to give it a new term and thus again muddying the waters of understanding
jahewson 2y ago
Hmm, surely “show” in this context would be “play” and “tell” would be “write it down”. I think you took the phrasing a bit too literally.

soneca 2y ago

I think inviting the person to play is much more engaging than just showing them you playing. Showing the music notation to the student = tell Playing the music to the student = show Letting the student play the music = engage Makes sense to me

mecsred 2y ago
But the reason they are a student is because they can't play the music. Showing them the notations and demonstrating how to play it are steps towards them playing it themselves.
- soneca 2y ago
  Not necessarily. Especially the notations are certainly not a necessary step towards the student playing. Playing for them, sure. But you can play once and invite them to play. Not keeping showing until you think they learned.
  - mecsred 2y ago
    Sure, you can have them learn by ear or learn by sheet, both possible. According to the analogy you can't do engage without doing either show or tell. Which one doesn't matter.
hinkley 2y ago
High barrier to entry skills like playing a piano don't conduct themselves well to random unguided exploration. And in music there is often a warning that doing so may ultimately restrict your potential in the field. Internal martial arts has the same warning. Across pretty much all disciplines in the field, the message is that you can only learn these skills kinesthetically. Not talking, not seeing, but feeling instructor corrections with your own body.
- Sirizarry 2y ago
  Im not sure why that’s a common sentiment but I disagree that unguided exploration in music is not conducive to productive learning. Or maybe you’re just talking specifically about classical piano which I guess sure that makes sense but the piano is way more versatile than that and I encourage anybody to pick up a keyboard and just explore. You’ll be shocked how much you can accomplish and theory is always there to learn later once it becomes relevant to you.

kynetic 2y ago

It's a semantics debate all around, but the article's main point is that "show" suggests a mere demonstration, whereas "engage" implies active participation by the learner in the process of learning.