7 ms·

> Also Bürgergeld is $500 a month for an adult, which is very far from "You can easily live from the Bürgergeld". Survive maybe but definitely not "easily live"

> Also Bürgergeld is $500 a month for an adult, which is very far from "You can easily live from the Bürgergeld". Survive maybe but definitely not "easily live". You're leaving out a ton of information there. The 500 Euros is after everything else has been paid for. There's also lots of benefits like Kindergeld, money for each child you have.

littlestymaar 2y ago
Money which itself barely covers the cost that having kids puts on you… People living out of it are living in absolute misery, well under the poverty line.
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  False. They are not living in "absolute misery". The highest germany court has established this in the past. German welfare is among the highest in the world. I also know this personally, I have lived on the past (even more strict) alternative to "Bürgergeld" for the first 18 years of my life. German welfare guarantees you food, an apartment for you and your children, public schooling, funding for school projects and even includes money for social gatherings. To portray this as "absolute misery" is false to the point of being dishonest and you're being unfair to billions of people living in pitiful states of poverty.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV. Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard. You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable. If you never skipped meal because you could not afford food, be sure that your parents were and just hid it from you out of dignity.
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      > Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard. They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population. Put this into perspective. I've seen incredible poverty in this world. Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely. > You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable You don't know my situation. There were little sacrifices to be had. I also never said it was always comfortable. But it was dignified and we had everything we needed. There was not a single day where we had to skip meals, and I remember filling out the forms for school trips myself. To live always comfortable is not the point of welfare. > I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV. Seeing as you're swatting away my opinions and personal experience as propaganda, I don't think there is any way to get a fruitful discussion out of this. I don't think we should lower welfare benefits. I just think we're being nationally out of touch with reality.
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        > They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population Who themselves are miles ahead the entirely of work population that ever lived on this planet before XXth century, but that doesn't make their life any better, does it? > Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely. You aren't entitled any gratitude from people, especially not on the basis that there lives is being made a bit less miserable because of policies you oppose. Maybe I would deserve it slightly more, because at least I'm voting in favor of these policies, but I don't think anyone owes me gratitude whatsoever. > To live always comfortable is not the point of welfare. I'm not arguing the opposite, but you did insist that these people lived comfortably. This is obviously BS and I'm glad to see you're retracting it now. > Seeing as you're swatting away my opinions and personal experience as propaganda, I don't think there is any way to get a fruitful discussion out of this. I don't think we should lower welfare benefits. I just think we're being nationally out of touch with reality. Whatever your opinions (which BTW are as valid as mine, by definition of being opinions), you started this conversation with factual lies (which, on the opposite, isn't OK) about people “easily living” on welfare. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not make this lie on purpose by yourself, and given that this is a recurrent trope of right wing politicians on TV, it's fair to assume that's where it came from.
onli 2y ago
That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. There is ceiling that is unreachably low. Heating is also not included,so in no way is everything else covered. To others: This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this. Don't believe a single bit, they do not describe the state of the country nor how the policies work. It is a common wave of propaganda though and maybe interesting from that side.
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  > That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins. There is a good calculation example here [1] [1]: https://x.com/sozi_simon/status/1737361321186701336 https://x.com/sozi_simon/status/1737361321186701336
  - onli 2y ago
    For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lohnt-sich-arbeit-noch-lohnabstand-und-arbeitsanreize-2024 https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted people to slide into work (through being self-employed for example). That should be a percentage, so that you have more at the end when completing a freelance project for example, instead of having worked for nothing. What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore - which is not true, neither the connection nor that people don't want to work. And to combine it with the statement that the welfare benefits are high, when they are not - the problem, if there is one, is that earned money reduces the benefits 100%, instead of on a sliding scale. It's not the amount, as in 99% of scenarios being on state welfare completely sucks in Germany, it's the scenario of not having enough money for food at the end of the month, being scared to heat in the winter and each unforeseen bill a mayor crisis. Also, it is also not okay to not mention that bürgergeld is still combined with sanctions. If not taking up (usual shitty ) work it can be lost, or missing a summoning, etc. Being in that system is thus highly stressful. Those sanctions were supposed to go away, instead they were made harder. Thanks SPD.

littlestymaar 2y ago

Money which itself barely covers the cost that having kids puts on you… People living out of it are living in absolute misery, well under the poverty line.

selfmodruntime 2y ago
False. They are not living in "absolute misery". The highest germany court has established this in the past. German welfare is among the highest in the world. I also know this personally, I have lived on the past (even more strict) alternative to "Bürgergeld" for the first 18 years of my life. German welfare guarantees you food, an apartment for you and your children, public schooling, funding for school projects and even includes money for social gatherings. To portray this as "absolute misery" is false to the point of being dishonest and you're being unfair to billions of people living in pitiful states of poverty.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV. Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard. You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable. If you never skipped meal because you could not afford food, be sure that your parents were and just hid it from you out of dignity.
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    > Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard. They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population. Put this into perspective. I've seen incredible poverty in this world. Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely. > You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable You don't know my situation. There were little sacrifices to be had. I also never said it was always comfortable. But it was dignified and we had everything we needed. There was not a single day where we had to skip meals, and I remember filling out the forms for school trips myself. To live always comfortable is not the point of welfare. > I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV. Seeing as you're swatting away my opinions and personal experience as propaganda, I don't think there is any way to get a fruitful discussion out of this. I don't think we should lower welfare benefits. I just think we're being nationally out of touch with reality.
    - littlestymaar 2y ago
      > They are better off than 95-99%% of the world's population Who themselves are miles ahead the entirely of work population that ever lived on this planet before XXth century, but that doesn't make their life any better, does it? > Our people are largely ungrateful and have lost the point entirely. You aren't entitled any gratitude from people, especially not on the basis that there lives is being made a bit less miserable because of policies you oppose. Maybe I would deserve it slightly more, because at least I'm voting in favor of these policies, but I don't think anyone owes me gratitude whatsoever. > To live always comfortable is not the point of welfare. I'm not arguing the opposite, but you did insist that these people lived comfortably. This is obviously BS and I'm glad to see you're retracting it now. > Seeing as you're swatting away my opinions and personal experience as propaganda, I don't think there is any way to get a fruitful discussion out of this. I don't think we should lower welfare benefits. I just think we're being nationally out of touch with reality. Whatever your opinions (which BTW are as valid as mine, by definition of being opinions), you started this conversation with factual lies (which, on the opposite, isn't OK) about people “easily living” on welfare. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not make this lie on purpose by yourself, and given that this is a recurrent trope of right wing politicians on TV, it's fair to assume that's where it came from.

onli 2y ago

That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. There is ceiling that is unreachably low. Heating is also not included,so in no way is everything else covered. To others: This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this. Don't believe a single bit, they do not describe the state of the country nor how the policies work. It is a common wave of propaganda though and maybe interesting from that side.

selfmodruntime 2y ago
> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins. There is a good calculation example here [1] [1]: https://x.com/sozi_simon/status/1737361321186701336 https://x.com/sozi_simon/status/1737361321186701336
- onli 2y ago
  For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lohnt-sich-arbeit-noch-lohnabstand-und-arbeitsanreize-2024 https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted people to slide into work (through being self-employed for example). That should be a percentage, so that you have more at the end when completing a freelance project for example, instead of having worked for nothing. What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore - which is not true, neither the connection nor that people don't want to work. And to combine it with the statement that the welfare benefits are high, when they are not - the problem, if there is one, is that earned money reduces the benefits 100%, instead of on a sliding scale. It's not the amount, as in 99% of scenarios being on state welfare completely sucks in Germany, it's the scenario of not having enough money for food at the end of the month, being scared to heat in the winter and each unforeseen bill a mayor crisis. Also, it is also not okay to not mention that bürgergeld is still combined with sanctions. If not taking up (usual shitty ) work it can be lost, or missing a summoning, etc. Being in that system is thus highly stressful. Those sanctions were supposed to go away, instead they were made harder. Thanks SPD.