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I suspect this is due to the intermingled effects of biology and politics. * Consider that with the loss of Roe v Wade many states, including my own, have adop

I suspect this is due to the intermingled effects of biology and politics. * Consider that with the loss of Roe v Wade many states, including my own, have adopted draconian policies towards abortion without consideration for medical necessity. * Consider also the study indicated the most increased risk age groups are late 20s and early 30s. What’s interesting is there was a study published December indicating first time mothers in the 16-20 age group when compared to the 21-25 age group were about 20% less likely to experience detrimental risks of regular vaginal births. The numbers held identical when compared between the US and third world countries without common access to advanced medical care. The study concluded that age is among the most serious of factors with regards to maternal health of first time mothers and this could explain why males developed a selective preference for younger females.

keiferski 2y ago
The recent Roe decision was in 2022. The study covers 2014-2021.
- anonym29 2y ago
  [flagged]
- avidphantasm 2y ago
  But “red” states have been making reproductive healthcare harder and harder to access during the study period. One hypothesis to test is whether there are increases in mortality in such states after controlling for factors outside of access to reproductive healthcare. This will likely be hard to tease out because health outcomes tend to be worse in general in such states.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    That's a fair point and one that had occurred to me. The point would be stronger with some substantiation. If you've any ready to hand that would be useful.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Yes that is possible, but it’s not what the commenter wrote - which is what I was responding to. Your other claim here would require other evidence to substantiate it.
  - marcuskane2 2y ago
    I wish we didn't use euphemisms like "reproductive healthcare" when talking about abortion, because I don't know if this comment is suggesting there have been actual changes to healthcare for pregnant women, or just saying there have been more unwanted babies delivered that would have been killed in-utero previously. I know that private equity purchases of healthcare companies have decreased access to healthcare in rural areas and decreased quality of care at many hospitals. I know that PBMs (pharmacy benefit managers) have decreased access to medicines. I know that the AMA has restricted the number of OBGyn residency spots which keeps the number of doctors too small, and correspondingly overworked. I know that many experienced nurses left the field entirely during covid, due to hours/stress/pay/trauma leaving many hospitals and clinics understaffed and with inexperienced nurses barely out of school running wards. Any of the things I listed in the second paragraph seem far more impactful than changing how many weeks pregnant a person can be to have an elective abortion, in terms of maternal deaths.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      The term is accurate if for no other reasons than: - Methods utilised during abortions are also utilised in non-abortion treatments particularly where the fetus is nonviable or has already died, including miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, and fetal demise. See: "In Oklahoma, a woman was told to wait until she's 'crashing' for abortion care" Statton ... learned she had a type of molar pregnancy, in which some of the tissue is cancerous. ... Her doctor told her she was at risk of hemorrhage and even death, but that she couldn't get treated there. The treatment for a patient in her condition is a dilation and curettage or D&C – an abortion procedure that clears pregnancy tissue from the uterus. Over the course of a week, again and again, she says doctors told her they could not care for her. After a week of being transferred to three different Oklahoma hospitals, Statton says her doctors actually suggested she leave the state and go to a place where an abortion is legal. <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/04/25/1171851775/oklahoma-woman-abortion-ban-study-shows-confusion-at-hospitals https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/04/25/1171851...> - Non-abortion treatments and procedures are increasingly withheld from pregnant women out of concern that they will be interpreted as abortions, as they in fact have been. See again above, also "Roe is over. Prison sentences are on the way." <https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/abortion-laws-punishing-women-supreme-court-ended-roe-rcna36268 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/abortion-laws-punishin...> - Medical facilities and doctors are closing and/or leaving states in which strong anti-abortion laws and prosecutions exist. E.g., "Idaho is losing OB-GYNs after strict abortion ban" <https://www.spokanepublicradio.org/regional-news/2024-04-08/idaho-is-losing-ob-gyns-after-strict-abortion-ban-but-health-exceptions-unlikely-this-year https://www.spokanepublicradio.org/regional-news/2024-04-08/...>. American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC): There have been several nationally publicized incidents where women experiencing pregnancy complications were turned away at hospitals due to fear that performing an abortion would be ruled as illegal. <https://www.aamc.org/news/what-doctors-should-know-about-emergency-abortions-states-bans https://www.aamc.org/news/what-doctors-should-know-about-eme...> "Texas AG threatens to prosecute doctors in emergency abortion" <https://www.reuters.com/legal/texas-judge-allows-woman-get-emergency-abortion-despite-state-ban-2023-12-07/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/texas-judge-allows-woman-get-e...>
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    This is probably reaching for an ordered and political-centric view of reality.
- phkahler 2y ago
  But also mentions acceleration in the last 3 years.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    That would seem to imply that the increase was already happening before the recent Roe decision?
    - phkahler 2y ago
      Or that it was already increasing and something else made it increase even faster? BTW I kind of like that the paper authors avoided this kind of speculation as to what may or may not have caused it.
      - keiferski 2y ago
        But what would that "something else" be? Because the study ended before the 2022 decision. I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Clearly an event that happened after the study couldn't have impacted the study.
        phkahler 2y ago
        Oh, my bad! So it for sure wasn't that.
arcticbull 2y ago
US maternal mortality has been among the worst in the OECD for many years - long before Roe was overturned - and the worst of any high income country. It seems to be due to lack of access/income and race if I recall correctly. For the highest income quintile it’s roughly in line with the OECD. The lower your income the worse you do, and if you’re black the numbers are off the charts. A few years ago you were 3X more likely to die in childbirth in America than Canada, and 6X more likely than Scandinavia. Not sure the exact stack up now. [edit] Here’s an NPR write up from 2017 [1] and 2023 [2]. And a more recent one suggesting the numbers may be overestimated in aggregate but suggests race is a huge factor, with black women 3X more likely to die in childbirth than white. Note the CDC disagrees with the idea it’s over-counting. [3] Even using the revised-down estimates America does not compare favorably to the OECD. [4] [1] https://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/527806002/focus-on-infants-during-childbirth-leaves-u-s-moms-in-danger https://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/527806002/focus-on-infants-du... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/07/09/1186694708/u-s-maternal-deaths-keep-rising-black-women-are-most-at-risk https://www.npr.org/2023/07/09/1186694708/u-s-maternal-death... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/13/1238269753/maternal-mortality-overestimate-deaths-births-health-disparities https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/13/1238269... [4] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT?locations=OE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT?locations=O...
- apwell23 2y ago
  > It seems to be due to lack of access/income and race if I recall correctly. For the highest income quintile it’s roughly in line with the OECD. Yes higher income ppl tend to be less overweight, eat healthy food, exercise and have less life stress.
  - MVissers 2y ago
    Also better access to healthcare.
    - apwell23 2y ago
      yes but thats not relevant because by the time you go the hosptial its already too late. Diseases we are talking about in this context have no medical solution.
kylebenzle 2y ago
[flagged]
pjc50 2y ago
This should also be brought up whenever people do one of those population decline scare stories. It's a real risk! > first time mothers in the 16-20 age group when compared to the 21-25 age group were about 20% less likely to experience detrimental risks The negative effect on lifetime income of having children young is extremely high, though, and people will shame teenagers for pregnancy. Especially as this almost invariably results in them being single parents. Bringing down teenage pregnancy rates has been a long term health project.
- kjellsbells 2y ago
  > Bringing down teenage pregnancy rates has been a long term health project. A project that in the US is wildly inconsistent, muddled, and rife with political interference, heavily tinged with US religious prudery. We know how to reduce teen pregnancy. Fact based sex education, access to contraception, these are straightforward. Instead we have the worst of all possible worlds where schools teach abstinence and the kids learn from porn.

keiferski 2y ago

The recent Roe decision was in 2022. The study covers 2014-2021.

anonym29 2y ago
[flagged]
avidphantasm 2y ago
But “red” states have been making reproductive healthcare harder and harder to access during the study period. One hypothesis to test is whether there are increases in mortality in such states after controlling for factors outside of access to reproductive healthcare. This will likely be hard to tease out because health outcomes tend to be worse in general in such states.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  That's a fair point and one that had occurred to me. The point would be stronger with some substantiation. If you've any ready to hand that would be useful.
- keiferski 2y ago
  Yes that is possible, but it’s not what the commenter wrote - which is what I was responding to. Your other claim here would require other evidence to substantiate it.
- marcuskane2 2y ago
  I wish we didn't use euphemisms like "reproductive healthcare" when talking about abortion, because I don't know if this comment is suggesting there have been actual changes to healthcare for pregnant women, or just saying there have been more unwanted babies delivered that would have been killed in-utero previously. I know that private equity purchases of healthcare companies have decreased access to healthcare in rural areas and decreased quality of care at many hospitals. I know that PBMs (pharmacy benefit managers) have decreased access to medicines. I know that the AMA has restricted the number of OBGyn residency spots which keeps the number of doctors too small, and correspondingly overworked. I know that many experienced nurses left the field entirely during covid, due to hours/stress/pay/trauma leaving many hospitals and clinics understaffed and with inexperienced nurses barely out of school running wards. Any of the things I listed in the second paragraph seem far more impactful than changing how many weeks pregnant a person can be to have an elective abortion, in terms of maternal deaths.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    The term is accurate if for no other reasons than: - Methods utilised during abortions are also utilised in non-abortion treatments particularly where the fetus is nonviable or has already died, including miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, and fetal demise. See: "In Oklahoma, a woman was told to wait until she's 'crashing' for abortion care" Statton ... learned she had a type of molar pregnancy, in which some of the tissue is cancerous. ... Her doctor told her she was at risk of hemorrhage and even death, but that she couldn't get treated there. The treatment for a patient in her condition is a dilation and curettage or D&C – an abortion procedure that clears pregnancy tissue from the uterus. Over the course of a week, again and again, she says doctors told her they could not care for her. After a week of being transferred to three different Oklahoma hospitals, Statton says her doctors actually suggested she leave the state and go to a place where an abortion is legal. <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/04/25/1171851775/oklahoma-woman-abortion-ban-study-shows-confusion-at-hospitals https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/04/25/1171851...> - Non-abortion treatments and procedures are increasingly withheld from pregnant women out of concern that they will be interpreted as abortions, as they in fact have been. See again above, also "Roe is over. Prison sentences are on the way." <https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/abortion-laws-punishing-women-supreme-court-ended-roe-rcna36268 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/abortion-laws-punishin...> - Medical facilities and doctors are closing and/or leaving states in which strong anti-abortion laws and prosecutions exist. E.g., "Idaho is losing OB-GYNs after strict abortion ban" <https://www.spokanepublicradio.org/regional-news/2024-04-08/idaho-is-losing-ob-gyns-after-strict-abortion-ban-but-health-exceptions-unlikely-this-year https://www.spokanepublicradio.org/regional-news/2024-04-08/...>. American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC): There have been several nationally publicized incidents where women experiencing pregnancy complications were turned away at hospitals due to fear that performing an abortion would be ruled as illegal. <https://www.aamc.org/news/what-doctors-should-know-about-emergency-abortions-states-bans https://www.aamc.org/news/what-doctors-should-know-about-eme...> "Texas AG threatens to prosecute doctors in emergency abortion" <https://www.reuters.com/legal/texas-judge-allows-woman-get-emergency-abortion-despite-state-ban-2023-12-07/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/texas-judge-allows-woman-get-e...>
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  This is probably reaching for an ordered and political-centric view of reality.
phkahler 2y ago
But also mentions acceleration in the last 3 years.
- keiferski 2y ago
  That would seem to imply that the increase was already happening before the recent Roe decision?
  - phkahler 2y ago
    Or that it was already increasing and something else made it increase even faster? BTW I kind of like that the paper authors avoided this kind of speculation as to what may or may not have caused it.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      But what would that "something else" be? Because the study ended before the 2022 decision. I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Clearly an event that happened after the study couldn't have impacted the study.
      - phkahler 2y ago
        Oh, my bad! So it for sure wasn't that.

arcticbull 2y ago

US maternal mortality has been among the worst in the OECD for many years - long before Roe was overturned - and the worst of any high income country. It seems to be due to lack of access/income and race if I recall correctly. For the highest income quintile it’s roughly in line with the OECD. The lower your income the worse you do, and if you’re black the numbers are off the charts. A few years ago you were 3X more likely to die in childbirth in America than Canada, and 6X more likely than Scandinavia. Not sure the exact stack up now. [edit] Here’s an NPR write up from 2017 [1] and 2023 [2]. And a more recent one suggesting the numbers may be overestimated in aggregate but suggests race is a huge factor, with black women 3X more likely to die in childbirth than white. Note the CDC disagrees with the idea it’s over-counting. [3] Even using the revised-down estimates America does not compare favorably to the OECD. [4] [1] https://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/527806002/focus-on-infants-during-childbirth-leaves-u-s-moms-in-danger https://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/527806002/focus-on-infants-du... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/07/09/1186694708/u-s-maternal-deaths-keep-rising-black-women-are-most-at-risk https://www.npr.org/2023/07/09/1186694708/u-s-maternal-death... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/13/1238269753/maternal-mortality-overestimate-deaths-births-health-disparities https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/13/1238269... [4] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT?locations=OE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT?locations=O...

apwell23 2y ago
> It seems to be due to lack of access/income and race if I recall correctly. For the highest income quintile it’s roughly in line with the OECD. Yes higher income ppl tend to be less overweight, eat healthy food, exercise and have less life stress.
- MVissers 2y ago
  Also better access to healthcare.
  - apwell23 2y ago
    yes but thats not relevant because by the time you go the hosptial its already too late. Diseases we are talking about in this context have no medical solution.

kylebenzle 2y ago

[flagged]

pjc50 2y ago

This should also be brought up whenever people do one of those population decline scare stories. It's a real risk! > first time mothers in the 16-20 age group when compared to the 21-25 age group were about 20% less likely to experience detrimental risks The negative effect on lifetime income of having children young is extremely high, though, and people will shame teenagers for pregnancy. Especially as this almost invariably results in them being single parents. Bringing down teenage pregnancy rates has been a long term health project.

kjellsbells 2y ago
> Bringing down teenage pregnancy rates has been a long term health project. A project that in the US is wildly inconsistent, muddled, and rife with political interference, heavily tinged with US religious prudery. We know how to reduce teen pregnancy. Fact based sex education, access to contraception, these are straightforward. Instead we have the worst of all possible worlds where schools teach abstinence and the kids learn from porn.