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I would wager that in terms of percentage of population the situation in Africa is not that bad as in Western countries. Some very poor countries may suffer to

I would wager that in terms of percentage of population the situation in Africa is not that bad as in Western countries. Some very poor countries may suffer to a larger degree but not Africa as a whole. To give a counter example, take a look at India and China, the two most populous nations. In both cases there is a huge migration from rural to urban centers but Social expectations, Cultural norms, Family structure and Economic necessities give youngsters something to strive for. In China in particular; you have entire villages populated only by Grand parents and Grand children because the Parents are away working in the City. And yet the situation is not dire like what is being painted in the article in spite of many problems. In India the rural to urban migration is not that vast compared to China so the effects of Family/Social/Cultural structures are even more stronger. Freedom/Progress needs to be balanced against Structure/Discipline for any Society to thrive. This is the reason all societies from ancient times always put Family/Clans at the center and enforced Discipline via Religious diktats/Cultural norms/Social mores etc. While many of these should be revised in the modern context their complete dismantling has left many adrift and in a existential crisis.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
> In China in particular; you have entire villages populated only by Grand parents and Grand children because the Parents are away working in the City. And yet the situation is not dire like what is being painted in the article in spite of many problems. This sounds like its own kind of dire.
- rramadass 2y ago
  Absolutely. But what is interesting is that the family structure doesn't breakdown. The Parents work themselves to the bone and send money back to help their Parents and Children in the village. The Grand Parents take care of the Grand Children. When the children grow up, depending upon the Parent's situation in the City, they move to the city to live with their parents and study/grow up there or if they are already at the employable age join the workforce in the city. And through it all they hang together.
  - calf 2y ago
    But that's just an Industrial-stage family structure. Loosely speaking. It's not that interesting and not fair to compare that with post-industrial neoliberal societies in the West. (I'm East Asian American.)
    - rramadass 2y ago
      I am not quite sure whether your comment is sarcasm or not. But assuming it is not, this is exactly what i wanted to point out. Societies have changed but the fundamental Human values have not and so that should have been maintained in some form during the process of change. We are Biological organisms with the same desires/fears/emotions/feelings as our forefathers but only the societal context has changed. While we don't have to go full retrograde nor should we go to the other extreme of negating all structures which have brought us to this point. It is in this light that one should look at all current-day "social progress" issues.
      - calf 2y ago
        It's your opinion what changes are too much, but your metaargument cannot answer that question which makes it sophistry to use the metaargument to argue for political moderation. Also, find a scientist who agrees with you that human values are historically invariant. It's just not true. What's more likely is you are conservative and misusing logical arguments to rationalize your actual political opinion. It's ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst.
        rramadass 2y ago
        First off, do not insinuate motivations to my comments by using phrases like "you are conservative", "your actual political opinion" etc. (loaded terms in the US and i am not even American) and go off on tangential "strawman" arguments. Also if you don't (or want to) understand something don't use phrases like "metaargument", "sophistry" etc. since they mean nothing. It is ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst. Finally, do not make inflammatory statements hiding behind anonymity since that is the very definition of a "Troll". Human Values/Ethics/Morals are the subject pf Philosophy from time immemorial and in the modern world also of Psychology/Sociology/etc. Their manifestation, and variations over time, modulated in a socio-cultural context is what has-been/is-being studied/researched by philosophers/sociologists/ethnographers/anthropologists/etc. For your edification, the following are some introductions which are recommended for study; 1) Ethics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics 2) Universal Values - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_value 3) Theory of Basic Human Values - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_basic_human_values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_basic_human_values 4) Moral Foundations Theory - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory
bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
> you have entire villages populated only by Grand parents and Grand children because the Parents are away working in the City Sounds lovely!
- rramadass 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41042330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41042330
KptMarchewa 2y ago
Mate, China's demographic situation is extremely worse than any western country. If anything, cultural shift has been way more extreme and fast in China than in the west.

paulryanrogers 2y ago

> In China in particular; you have entire villages populated only by Grand parents and Grand children because the Parents are away working in the City. And yet the situation is not dire like what is being painted in the article in spite of many problems. This sounds like its own kind of dire.

rramadass 2y ago
Absolutely. But what is interesting is that the family structure doesn't breakdown. The Parents work themselves to the bone and send money back to help their Parents and Children in the village. The Grand Parents take care of the Grand Children. When the children grow up, depending upon the Parent's situation in the City, they move to the city to live with their parents and study/grow up there or if they are already at the employable age join the workforce in the city. And through it all they hang together.
- calf 2y ago
  But that's just an Industrial-stage family structure. Loosely speaking. It's not that interesting and not fair to compare that with post-industrial neoliberal societies in the West. (I'm East Asian American.)
  - rramadass 2y ago
    I am not quite sure whether your comment is sarcasm or not. But assuming it is not, this is exactly what i wanted to point out. Societies have changed but the fundamental Human values have not and so that should have been maintained in some form during the process of change. We are Biological organisms with the same desires/fears/emotions/feelings as our forefathers but only the societal context has changed. While we don't have to go full retrograde nor should we go to the other extreme of negating all structures which have brought us to this point. It is in this light that one should look at all current-day "social progress" issues.
    - calf 2y ago
      It's your opinion what changes are too much, but your metaargument cannot answer that question which makes it sophistry to use the metaargument to argue for political moderation. Also, find a scientist who agrees with you that human values are historically invariant. It's just not true. What's more likely is you are conservative and misusing logical arguments to rationalize your actual political opinion. It's ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst.
      - rramadass 2y ago
        First off, do not insinuate motivations to my comments by using phrases like "you are conservative", "your actual political opinion" etc. (loaded terms in the US and i am not even American) and go off on tangential "strawman" arguments. Also if you don't (or want to) understand something don't use phrases like "metaargument", "sophistry" etc. since they mean nothing. It is ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst. Finally, do not make inflammatory statements hiding behind anonymity since that is the very definition of a "Troll". Human Values/Ethics/Morals are the subject pf Philosophy from time immemorial and in the modern world also of Psychology/Sociology/etc. Their manifestation, and variations over time, modulated in a socio-cultural context is what has-been/is-being studied/researched by philosophers/sociologists/ethnographers/anthropologists/etc. For your edification, the following are some introductions which are recommended for study; 1) Ethics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics 2) Universal Values - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_value 3) Theory of Basic Human Values - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_basic_human_values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_basic_human_values 4) Moral Foundations Theory - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago

> you have entire villages populated only by Grand parents and Grand children because the Parents are away working in the City Sounds lovely!

rramadass 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41042330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41042330

KptMarchewa 2y ago

Mate, China's demographic situation is extremely worse than any western country. If anything, cultural shift has been way more extreme and fast in China than in the west.