4 ms·

To add value to society?

by eamsen 2y ago

rbanffy 2y ago
Why is value needed? How much of it is sufficient for society to function? Yes, it IS a provocation. Let's go deeper into this question.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Why is value needed? How much of it is sufficient for society to function? As much as people want. A subsistence lifestyle is incredibly cheap and accessible; most of us just don't want it.
- godshatter 2y ago
  Because I want to live in an interplanetary society with awesome tech and flying cars and holodecks and life extending medicines and who-knows-what-else and we're not going to get there if people are content to sit around in their nondescript 1-person apartments eating pre-packaged meals and the occasional weekly piece of cake and play Call of Duty or watch YouTube all day.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I think it is because people consuming social value without adding to it leads to division and fracturing of that society. More simply, value production is needed because value consumption is occurring.
- eamsen 2y ago
  Value production is needed, because the value we produce is fleeting and healthy societies grow. How much value is needed is determined by the society through a free market.
  - falcolas 2y ago
    How much value can a disabled veteran provide to the free market? If that value is zero, should they just lay down and die? What if they're not a veteran, but just an unfortunate soul with a disability that provides "zero" value?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > How much value can a disabled veteran provide to the free market? If that value is zero, should they just lay down and die? If you do this you stop getting new veterans. Functionally speaking this is why every society with armies has veteran benefits.
      - aspenmayer 2y ago
        I agree, and I think there are more nuanced and meaningful historical and especially modern reasons we encourage veterans to turn swords to ploughshares. It’s reasonable to assume that the powers that be may find themselves in situations politically precarious if veterans aren’t able to provide for themselves and those they ostensibly fought for. Veterans know where real and metaphorical bodies are buried, they also know that at a nation scale, the internal problems that face first world nations are usually not logistical, but political. If not for fear of disrupting business interests, UBI in the form of food stamps, housing, and Medicare for all is possible. The veterans know this, because they are fed and housed and medically treated at scale during and after service. However, if everyone receives these same benefits also without service obligations, the ability to offer incentives to service is limited. UBI is a thorny issue due to the complexities of implementing it piecemeal alongside the already-existing status quo. In some ways, a greenfield solution would be easier, but they call those revolutionary changes revolutions rather than evolutions for good reasons. Some stray links for food for thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > there are more nuanced and meaningful historical and especially modern reasons we encourage veterans to turn swords to ploughshares Oh, I always thought it was a reference to the Roman practice of settling veterans on farmsteads [1]. > if everyone receives these same benefits also without service obligations, the ability to offer incentives to service is limited I'm not sure we could offer VA benefits to every adult without massively raising taxes. (Also, we treat our veterans quite poorly.) [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41342861 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41342861

To add value to society?

by eamsen 2y ago

To add value to society?

Why is value needed? How much of it is sufficient for society to function? Yes, it IS a provocation. Let's go deeper into this question.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Why is value needed? How much of it is sufficient for society to function? As much as people want. A subsistence lifestyle is incredibly cheap and accessible; most of us just don't want it.
godshatter 2y ago
Because I want to live in an interplanetary society with awesome tech and flying cars and holodecks and life extending medicines and who-knows-what-else and we're not going to get there if people are content to sit around in their nondescript 1-person apartments eating pre-packaged meals and the occasional weekly piece of cake and play Call of Duty or watch YouTube all day.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I think it is because people consuming social value without adding to it leads to division and fracturing of that society. More simply, value production is needed because value consumption is occurring.
eamsen 2y ago
Value production is needed, because the value we produce is fleeting and healthy societies grow. How much value is needed is determined by the society through a free market.
- falcolas 2y ago
  How much value can a disabled veteran provide to the free market? If that value is zero, should they just lay down and die? What if they're not a veteran, but just an unfortunate soul with a disability that provides "zero" value?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > How much value can a disabled veteran provide to the free market? If that value is zero, should they just lay down and die? If you do this you stop getting new veterans. Functionally speaking this is why every society with armies has veteran benefits.
    - aspenmayer 2y ago
      I agree, and I think there are more nuanced and meaningful historical and especially modern reasons we encourage veterans to turn swords to ploughshares. It’s reasonable to assume that the powers that be may find themselves in situations politically precarious if veterans aren’t able to provide for themselves and those they ostensibly fought for. Veterans know where real and metaphorical bodies are buried, they also know that at a nation scale, the internal problems that face first world nations are usually not logistical, but political. If not for fear of disrupting business interests, UBI in the form of food stamps, housing, and Medicare for all is possible. The veterans know this, because they are fed and housed and medically treated at scale during and after service. However, if everyone receives these same benefits also without service obligations, the ability to offer incentives to service is limited. UBI is a thorny issue due to the complexities of implementing it piecemeal alongside the already-existing status quo. In some ways, a greenfield solution would be easier, but they call those revolutionary changes revolutions rather than evolutions for good reasons. Some stray links for food for thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > there are more nuanced and meaningful historical and especially modern reasons we encourage veterans to turn swords to ploughshares Oh, I always thought it was a reference to the Roman practice of settling veterans on farmsteads [1]. > if everyone receives these same benefits also without service obligations, the ability to offer incentives to service is limited I'm not sure we could offer VA benefits to every adult without massively raising taxes. (Also, we treat our veterans quite poorly.) [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41342861 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41342861