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And at the same time people struggle to pay rent. Official inflation numbers doesn't correlate how 'median' earner spends its salary.

by betaby 2y ago

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
Housing costs are not included in measures of inflation. While they have gone up (almost certainly faster than inflation), they are not part of the inflation numbers that we hear in the news.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Housing costs are not included in measures of inflation Yes, they are [1][2]. [1] https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/methodologies/RIPfactsheet.pdf https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/methodologies/RIPfac... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-does-the-consumer-price-index-account-for-the-cost-of-housing/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-does-the-consumer-pri...
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    My apologies, home ownership costs are not included in inflation measures. But I was wrong and you're correct: rents are. Which actually makes my point even more clearly: yes, there are a lot of anecdotes about not being able to make the rent, but these are not supported by the statistics for inflation and median income. Doesn't mean that they are wrong, but makes it more likely that there are other reasons for the proliferation of these stories.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > home ownership costs are not included in inflation measures They are, as one of the inputs to imputed rent for owner-occupied housing. > lot of anecdotes about not being able to make the rent A lot is explained by regional variation. For example, real mean wages in San Francisco are back where they were in 2017 [1]. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MWACL06075 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MWACL06075
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        >A lot is explained by regional variation. but no one is digging in to talk about the regional variation. SF going back to being "still one of the highest CoL post genrification" instead of "unbearable for all but the elite" isn't exactly comforting.
asah 2y ago
The rent-strugglers have the loudest voices... (and they're not "wrong" just skewing the media)
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  lies, damn lies, and statistics. It's an oft-mentioned point in the last few yearss to focus on raw income and not on spending power. if you get 50% more pay but rent doubles, the vast majority of people would have less spending power. same with job numbers. "Unemployment is historically low!". meanwhile, gig and part time worked soard while full time jobs dipped. In addition, you look further and realize how people who "gave up" after 2-3 months without an interview are not counted as "unemployed" and you realize there's a lot to break down, that no one is breaking down
  - asah 2y ago
    Indeed it's complicated, but BLS does count them as "discouraged": https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/persons-not-in-the-labor-force-selected-indicators.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/persons-not-... https://www.bls.gov/cps/lfcharacteristics.htm#discouraged https://www.bls.gov/cps/lfcharacteristics.htm#discouraged BLS may not be perfect but they're not idiots and it's wildly better than other countries.
lolinder 2y ago
Does the median earner when considering the entire country struggle to pay rent? Or is it just the median earner in certain extremely expensive metro areas that happen to get a lot of focus in the media because that's where the journalists live? The numbers OP cites can be 100% accurate and reflective of reality while it is still also true that people in the Bay Area struggle to pay for housing.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  There is every chance that income is a multi-modal distribution, and thus one should not talk of a single median. However, the person to whom I was replying used cheap and not-so-cheerful language to suggest that it was possible to talk about this en masse. Assuming that to be reasonable, I replied with an en masse response. Certainly if you break it down at the county level, I expect you'd find multiple different patterns, and would then be faced with which ones to call "typical" or "indicative".

And at the same time people struggle to pay rent. Official inflation numbers doesn't correlate how 'median' earner spends its salary.

by betaby 2y ago

And at the same time people struggle to pay rent. Official inflation numbers doesn't correlate how 'median' earner spends its salary.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago

Housing costs are not included in measures of inflation. While they have gone up (almost certainly faster than inflation), they are not part of the inflation numbers that we hear in the news.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Housing costs are not included in measures of inflation Yes, they are [1][2]. [1] https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/methodologies/RIPfactsheet.pdf https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/methodologies/RIPfac... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-does-the-consumer-price-index-account-for-the-cost-of-housing/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-does-the-consumer-pri...
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  My apologies, home ownership costs are not included in inflation measures. But I was wrong and you're correct: rents are. Which actually makes my point even more clearly: yes, there are a lot of anecdotes about not being able to make the rent, but these are not supported by the statistics for inflation and median income. Doesn't mean that they are wrong, but makes it more likely that there are other reasons for the proliferation of these stories.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > home ownership costs are not included in inflation measures They are, as one of the inputs to imputed rent for owner-occupied housing. > lot of anecdotes about not being able to make the rent A lot is explained by regional variation. For example, real mean wages in San Francisco are back where they were in 2017 [1]. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MWACL06075 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MWACL06075
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      >A lot is explained by regional variation. but no one is digging in to talk about the regional variation. SF going back to being "still one of the highest CoL post genrification" instead of "unbearable for all but the elite" isn't exactly comforting.

asah 2y ago

The rent-strugglers have the loudest voices... (and they're not "wrong" just skewing the media)

johnnyanmac 2y ago
lies, damn lies, and statistics. It's an oft-mentioned point in the last few yearss to focus on raw income and not on spending power. if you get 50% more pay but rent doubles, the vast majority of people would have less spending power. same with job numbers. "Unemployment is historically low!". meanwhile, gig and part time worked soard while full time jobs dipped. In addition, you look further and realize how people who "gave up" after 2-3 months without an interview are not counted as "unemployed" and you realize there's a lot to break down, that no one is breaking down
- asah 2y ago
  Indeed it's complicated, but BLS does count them as "discouraged": https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/persons-not-in-the-labor-force-selected-indicators.htm https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/persons-not-... https://www.bls.gov/cps/lfcharacteristics.htm#discouraged https://www.bls.gov/cps/lfcharacteristics.htm#discouraged BLS may not be perfect but they're not idiots and it's wildly better than other countries.

lolinder 2y ago

Does the median earner when considering the entire country struggle to pay rent? Or is it just the median earner in certain extremely expensive metro areas that happen to get a lot of focus in the media because that's where the journalists live? The numbers OP cites can be 100% accurate and reflective of reality while it is still also true that people in the Bay Area struggle to pay for housing.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
There is every chance that income is a multi-modal distribution, and thus one should not talk of a single median. However, the person to whom I was replying used cheap and not-so-cheerful language to suggest that it was possible to talk about this en masse. Assuming that to be reasonable, I replied with an en masse response. Certainly if you break it down at the county level, I expect you'd find multiple different patterns, and would then be faced with which ones to call "typical" or "indicative".