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People are animals. When animals stop breeding, it is worthwhile to look into their environment to see why that is the case. "Want" doesn't really come into bas

People are animals. When animals stop breeding, it is worthwhile to look into their environment to see why that is the case. "Want" doesn't really come into basic biological functions, it's an ex post facto rationalization.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
matrix87 2y ago
It also works the other way: people can be socially pressured into having children That outcome isn't "more natural" than a hypothetical where they aren't pressured and don't have children There's no way of distinguishing instinct from social conditioning at scale, this argument is just using naturalness as a moral characterization
- Amezarak 2y ago
  What? This argument is entirely extramoral. Morals and “social pressure” are also just the result of instinct.
MattGaiser 2y ago
Sex is the base biological desire. Children are just the outcome of that. But one can now happen consistently without the other. Animals stopping breeding means they stop having sex. That is not necessarily the case with humans.
- spacephysics 2y ago
  This comes off as quite a reductionist response. Beyond the biological, there’s the question of why people don’t want to start families
  - marssaxman 2y ago
    Perhaps they never really did, and much of the claimed past desire to start families can be seen as an example of choice-supportive bias in an environment where birth control was harder to come by, with social norms discouraging use.
- Amezarak 2y ago
  I'd disagree with this, but it's easier to just point out that the trendline is for higher and higher proportions of the population to become sexually inactive. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-having-less-sex-whether-theyre-teenagers-or-40-somethings/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-... > The decreases “aren’t trivial,” as the authors wrote in the study, published on November 19 in Archives of Sexual Behavior. Between 2009 and 2018, the proportion of adolescents reporting no sexual activity, either alone or with partners, rose from 28.8 percent to 44.2 percent among young men and from 49.5 percent in 2009 to 74 percent among young women. The underlying paper has more demographic breakdowns: > Wellings et al. (2019)—using three waves of data from the UK’s National Surveys of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (Natsal) completed in 1991, 2001, and 2012—found that frequency of sex among 16–44 year olds had declined, more so among married participants and those in the 35–44 age group. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02125-2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02125-2 Similar article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/all-about-sex/202106/why-people-are-having-so-much-less-sex-today https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/all-about-sex/2021...
surgical_fire 2y ago
Following this rationale we should still be running naked in small packs, hunting large animals in some African Savannah. Our basic desires and how we deal with them is informed by our society and how it is organized, its culture, etc.
- Amezarak 2y ago
  Absolutely the expression of our instincts is formed by our environment, including the social environment. Yes, our present social organization could be making the human animal sick.

deleted 2y ago

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matrix87 2y ago

It also works the other way: people can be socially pressured into having children That outcome isn't "more natural" than a hypothetical where they aren't pressured and don't have children There's no way of distinguishing instinct from social conditioning at scale, this argument is just using naturalness as a moral characterization

Amezarak 2y ago
What? This argument is entirely extramoral. Morals and “social pressure” are also just the result of instinct.

MattGaiser 2y ago

Sex is the base biological desire. Children are just the outcome of that. But one can now happen consistently without the other. Animals stopping breeding means they stop having sex. That is not necessarily the case with humans.

spacephysics 2y ago
This comes off as quite a reductionist response. Beyond the biological, there’s the question of why people don’t want to start families
- marssaxman 2y ago
  Perhaps they never really did, and much of the claimed past desire to start families can be seen as an example of choice-supportive bias in an environment where birth control was harder to come by, with social norms discouraging use.
Amezarak 2y ago
I'd disagree with this, but it's easier to just point out that the trendline is for higher and higher proportions of the population to become sexually inactive. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-having-less-sex-whether-theyre-teenagers-or-40-somethings/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-... > The decreases “aren’t trivial,” as the authors wrote in the study, published on November 19 in Archives of Sexual Behavior. Between 2009 and 2018, the proportion of adolescents reporting no sexual activity, either alone or with partners, rose from 28.8 percent to 44.2 percent among young men and from 49.5 percent in 2009 to 74 percent among young women. The underlying paper has more demographic breakdowns: > Wellings et al. (2019)—using three waves of data from the UK’s National Surveys of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (Natsal) completed in 1991, 2001, and 2012—found that frequency of sex among 16–44 year olds had declined, more so among married participants and those in the 35–44 age group. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02125-2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02125-2 Similar article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/all-about-sex/202106/why-people-are-having-so-much-less-sex-today https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/all-about-sex/2021...

surgical_fire 2y ago

Following this rationale we should still be running naked in small packs, hunting large animals in some African Savannah. Our basic desires and how we deal with them is informed by our society and how it is organized, its culture, etc.

Amezarak 2y ago
Absolutely the expression of our instincts is formed by our environment, including the social environment. Yes, our present social organization could be making the human animal sick.