4 ms·

>drive There is your problem. Personal automobiles aren't a feasible method of transportation past a certain population density.

nemomarx 2y ago
I think they're right to complain that cities should be fixing that by building the public transportation more?
- gedy 2y ago
  Or, heaven forbid, make living near office affordable.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    ironically enough, if living near the office was affordable then there wouldn't be so many RTO mandates. Real estate are on their death throes trying to recover their tax deals over this
- ryukafalz 2y ago
  But that doesn't seem like what they're suggesting: > congested, underbuilt roads
whatever1 2y ago
Buses also are useless. Thry routinely waste you hours due to their slowness and inconsistency. The choices really are two: subway (or any dedicated rail thing) or car.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  Or get this, a bike (in case you live under ~10 km away). Just rolls the gym hours into the commute for double efficiency, and you can be always on time since traffic can't really affect you.
  - htrp 2y ago
    And bring a change of clothes and find a shower at the office for when you show up all sweaty.
    - moffkalast 2y ago
      People seriously overestimate how sweaty you get if you use a tiny bit of antiperspirant and don't drive like a maniac.
      - machomaster 2y ago
        You are seriously underestimating the amount of sweating a normal, healthy man does if he trained consistently for some time and his body learned to quickly adapt to minimal physical stress (heck, I sweat profusely even if I merely slowly walk). Let alone if there are any kinds of hills.
        moffkalast 2y ago
        TIL, I've looked it up and apparently you're right. The more fit someone is, the more they sweat. That's so counterintuitive tbh, I would've thought that it would be the opposite since you don't need to strain as much, but I guess there must be some baseline energy use and more muscle mass equals more heating, plus a faster learned cooling response. Ironically that makes cycling a much better choice for people who aren't fit. Finally something where being lazy gives you an advantage.
        machomaster 2y ago
        The better performance of a fit person is partly explained by more muscles (incl. heart), but a significant part of performance boost is the fact that body autoregulates (e.g. by sweating and keeping the temperature perfect for activity, instead of letting body overheat, which results in a performance drop) itself so much better. Raising the heart rate much faster is also part of a better self-regulation of a fit person.
- JBorrow 2y ago
  Buses are only slow and inconsistent because of cars.
  - LtWorf 2y ago
    Not true. In my city in sweden they underpay drivers, and don't want to pay for them to do the bus driving course. So they have no drivers… so busses don't show up. So when they show up they might already be full.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    beyond lack of dedicated lanes, the schedules in L.A. are just terrible. Most run hourly and don't really run late.
  - andrepd 2y ago
    Exactly, a bus that doesn't have its own lane is a failure, as they get stuck in traffic it'll always strictly slower than cars. So people—if they can help it—drive cars, making more traffic, making buses slower, causing people to prefer more cars... While if they run in dedicated lanes there is a counterbalance: the more people drive the worse traffic is, making the bus a comparatively better option, making people drive less... :)
- jplrssn 2y ago
  Buses can be very dependable and cheaper than rail if they run in dedicated bus lanes. You’re right that they aren’t much use if they get stuck in the same traffic as everyone else.
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    Not many places have room for an extra lane that is only used a tiny percentage of the time
    - xethos 2y ago
      That "tiny percentage of the time" is roughly once every 15 minutes when done well, and transports (in my city) roughly 150 people during rush hour. Every bus lane you build is ~800 cars you don't have to deal with in traffic, assuming an approximately two hour rush hour
- dylan604 2y ago
  Buses utilize the same roads/infrastructure the personal cars do which is a huge advantage for scaling. Subway/rail requires dedicated rights of way, are very expensive to scale, require much more money for the smaller/less used end product.
- TheCoelacanth 2y ago
  Buses are great as long as providing a good level of service is a priority for transportation planners.
RiverCrochet 2y ago
I'm not picky about the solution and of course it's a complex issue. - If a safe, reliable bus or train went to and from close to my house to close to the office, I'd take it. Key is safe and reliable. - If the roads were designed with enough capacity and planning in mind such that groups of vehicles are not stuck driving 15 MPH on a 70 MPH speed limit stretch of highway for 30 minutes or longer every day, that'd be fine. - If zoning laws/tax laws/whatever were such that it would be easier to build away from yet close to city centers and have smaller or additional offices closer to where people live, that'd work for me. - If city apartments were in reach costwise or even somehow subsidized by my employer in an equitable way (don't really know how that would look), and crime was not an issue, I would consider moving within walking distance of my workplace.
- jspash 2y ago
  I'm just curious, what about your local bus and/or train is not safe? Do you mean it could crash at any moment? Or it is usually full of unsavoury characters?
  - burnished 2y ago
    Probably the latter. There doesn't tend to be good enforcement of social norms and etiquette on public transit.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Homeless people in my area (LA). I don't blame them individually at all, it's a societal issue that some at best got kicked out of their living spaces when rent doubled in the last 5 years. Or at worst were fed fentanyl and had their lives ruined just to line the pockets of some skeevy "medical company" (thank goodness they are having the books thrown at them). But regardless of fault, they aren't mostly just some people down on luck that at best ask for some change like in my childhood. enough are dangerous, unpredictable, and mentally unwell that public transportation is a non-trivial risk here.
  - RiverCrochet 2y ago
    I don't have a local bus or train, what I provided were examples. > Do you mean it could crash at any moment? Or it is usually full of unsavoury characters? Both. Buses/trains should be secure places and properly maintained at all times.

nemomarx 2y ago

I think they're right to complain that cities should be fixing that by building the public transportation more?

gedy 2y ago
Or, heaven forbid, make living near office affordable.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  ironically enough, if living near the office was affordable then there wouldn't be so many RTO mandates. Real estate are on their death throes trying to recover their tax deals over this
ryukafalz 2y ago
But that doesn't seem like what they're suggesting: > congested, underbuilt roads

whatever1 2y ago

Buses also are useless. Thry routinely waste you hours due to their slowness and inconsistency. The choices really are two: subway (or any dedicated rail thing) or car.

moffkalast 2y ago
Or get this, a bike (in case you live under ~10 km away). Just rolls the gym hours into the commute for double efficiency, and you can be always on time since traffic can't really affect you.
- htrp 2y ago
  And bring a change of clothes and find a shower at the office for when you show up all sweaty.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    People seriously overestimate how sweaty you get if you use a tiny bit of antiperspirant and don't drive like a maniac.
    - machomaster 2y ago
      You are seriously underestimating the amount of sweating a normal, healthy man does if he trained consistently for some time and his body learned to quickly adapt to minimal physical stress (heck, I sweat profusely even if I merely slowly walk). Let alone if there are any kinds of hills.
      - moffkalast 2y ago
        TIL, I've looked it up and apparently you're right. The more fit someone is, the more they sweat. That's so counterintuitive tbh, I would've thought that it would be the opposite since you don't need to strain as much, but I guess there must be some baseline energy use and more muscle mass equals more heating, plus a faster learned cooling response. Ironically that makes cycling a much better choice for people who aren't fit. Finally something where being lazy gives you an advantage.
        machomaster 2y ago
        The better performance of a fit person is partly explained by more muscles (incl. heart), but a significant part of performance boost is the fact that body autoregulates (e.g. by sweating and keeping the temperature perfect for activity, instead of letting body overheat, which results in a performance drop) itself so much better. Raising the heart rate much faster is also part of a better self-regulation of a fit person.
JBorrow 2y ago
Buses are only slow and inconsistent because of cars.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  Not true. In my city in sweden they underpay drivers, and don't want to pay for them to do the bus driving course. So they have no drivers… so busses don't show up. So when they show up they might already be full.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  beyond lack of dedicated lanes, the schedules in L.A. are just terrible. Most run hourly and don't really run late.
- andrepd 2y ago
  Exactly, a bus that doesn't have its own lane is a failure, as they get stuck in traffic it'll always strictly slower than cars. So people—if they can help it—drive cars, making more traffic, making buses slower, causing people to prefer more cars... While if they run in dedicated lanes there is a counterbalance: the more people drive the worse traffic is, making the bus a comparatively better option, making people drive less... :)
jplrssn 2y ago
Buses can be very dependable and cheaper than rail if they run in dedicated bus lanes. You’re right that they aren’t much use if they get stuck in the same traffic as everyone else.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  Not many places have room for an extra lane that is only used a tiny percentage of the time
  - xethos 2y ago
    That "tiny percentage of the time" is roughly once every 15 minutes when done well, and transports (in my city) roughly 150 people during rush hour. Every bus lane you build is ~800 cars you don't have to deal with in traffic, assuming an approximately two hour rush hour
dylan604 2y ago
Buses utilize the same roads/infrastructure the personal cars do which is a huge advantage for scaling. Subway/rail requires dedicated rights of way, are very expensive to scale, require much more money for the smaller/less used end product.
TheCoelacanth 2y ago
Buses are great as long as providing a good level of service is a priority for transportation planners.

RiverCrochet 2y ago

I'm not picky about the solution and of course it's a complex issue. - If a safe, reliable bus or train went to and from close to my house to close to the office, I'd take it. Key is safe and reliable. - If the roads were designed with enough capacity and planning in mind such that groups of vehicles are not stuck driving 15 MPH on a 70 MPH speed limit stretch of highway for 30 minutes or longer every day, that'd be fine. - If zoning laws/tax laws/whatever were such that it would be easier to build away from yet close to city centers and have smaller or additional offices closer to where people live, that'd work for me. - If city apartments were in reach costwise or even somehow subsidized by my employer in an equitable way (don't really know how that would look), and crime was not an issue, I would consider moving within walking distance of my workplace.

jspash 2y ago
I'm just curious, what about your local bus and/or train is not safe? Do you mean it could crash at any moment? Or it is usually full of unsavoury characters?
- burnished 2y ago
  Probably the latter. There doesn't tend to be good enforcement of social norms and etiquette on public transit.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Homeless people in my area (LA). I don't blame them individually at all, it's a societal issue that some at best got kicked out of their living spaces when rent doubled in the last 5 years. Or at worst were fed fentanyl and had their lives ruined just to line the pockets of some skeevy "medical company" (thank goodness they are having the books thrown at them). But regardless of fault, they aren't mostly just some people down on luck that at best ask for some change like in my childhood. enough are dangerous, unpredictable, and mentally unwell that public transportation is a non-trivial risk here.
- RiverCrochet 2y ago
  I don't have a local bus or train, what I provided were examples. > Do you mean it could crash at any moment? Or it is usually full of unsavoury characters? Both. Buses/trains should be secure places and properly maintained at all times.