4 ms·

> Being emotionally available, participating in chores, providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time, being reasonably well-read and good co

by Doches 2y ago

> Being emotionally available, participating in chores, providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time, being reasonably well-read and good conversationalist, etc. I...honestly cannot tell if this is meant ironically. Those things seem like table stakes for being an adult. It's not "expecting more of them" to simply expect people to...grow up, and help care for the other people in their lives. You write "participating in chores" as if that's one of a list of demands! That's not a demand; that's just...life.

dsign 2y ago
> Being emotionally available My dad taught me boys do the opposite. My schoolmates told me that emotions were not for boys. I'm pretty sure I'm not a unique snowflake. > participating in chores Dad said that boys don't do domestic chores. If a couple lives inside an apartment, all chores are domestic. > providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time Jesus, this is not exactly trivial for most of us. > being reasonably well-read Very few of my friends, family and acquaintances are well-read. I'm pretty sure they don't even know what table stakes are. But it's not a hard requirement, they have kids anyway. > good conversationalist Not a trivial thing either. Incidentally, being well-read doesn't help if your partner is not, or if your partner is onto serious books and you like to read horny gay romps.
- mikhael28 2y ago
  Well, I guess don’t move to the big city and try to settle down with an IG baddie? I appreciate the fact that people like this exist, everywhere, in large quantities. But that means that the dating market, in some places, have decided there is no product market fit. Very HN statement. Now, the options are - rebrand, or move to new market, or government regulation to provide ‘protectionist’ tariffs and trade barriers to promote ‘homegrown industries’. I prefer the free market, but I can understand why the West Virginia coal miners want the government to bail them out. I’m not sure what to do about this state of events at all.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    You nailed that metaphor. To the very end.
nikanj 2y ago
Are you saying we used to always expect men to do all of the above, or do you agree with me that we ask more from men than we used to?
big-green-man 2y ago
Being the perfect adult is table stakes? This description is the ideal middle class man. If that's table stakes to you, either you've got one hell of a catch or you've got a few more years left before you settle. Most adults, full grown adults, men and women, don't meet all those requirements. I do, most don't.
- galdosdi 2y ago
  There's actually plenty of people like that out there, but probably not where you live.
  - big-green-man 2y ago
    Oh there are plenty of people like that, yes. Well, minus the "makes good money but doesnt work a lot". But that's not table stakes.
    - galdosdi 2y ago
      Agreed, that's the one part that's not table stakes as not anyone can count on it. That's a nice to have and an aspiration. I almost called that out as a minor exception, but didn't because there's still something there in spirit, namely values even if not execution: For, it is table stakes to be generally decent at having a work ethic at all, and to also value family time (within the reasonable constraints of work), and thus to do your reasonable best within your means even if that means a pretty meager, but passable material lifestyle, and/or there's an attempt to consistently make time for family regularly every week, even if it's a little limited by work schedule. It only takes 10 minutes to tuck your child in and chat with them a little and if that's all you have most days because you're busy buying food and rent for them, that's OK. You have to eat and they have to eat, so it takes no extra time to eat together, even if it's a McDonald's or a can of beans and a loaf of bread, even if it doesn't work out every day. But it's generally seen as not very good to go too extreme in one direction or the other (borderline homeless / broken home due to not working at all or habitually quitting jobs rashly without better lined up isn't OK, and "working rich" dad who never sees the kids ever and seems disinterested the one time he has an hour once week also isn't OK) A similar example of values being more important than execution, is that nothing stops a very uneducated parent from highly valuing education (and in America, this is a lot more common in Hispanic, Jewish[1], and Asian cultures, for example) and pushing their child to exceed their own meager achievement. The fact that the parent may never be able to cogently discuss the things the kid is learning once they get past elementary school doesn't really stop a darned thing. The palpable incredible pride says it all. Contrast this to the cultures where kids who try to achieve are seen as traitors and getting too big for their britches. I was very sad to know some young men in Arkansas when I went to college there who struggled with these mixed expectations, coming from a community where they felt that they would be borderline ostracized for rising "so much higher" than they started. This was one of the things in Hillbilly Elegy, which I recently read, that really rang true, even if some others seemed questionable or played up for bestseller appeal (the violent criminal uncle tall tales come to mind -- nugget of truth in them or not, they were obviously selected from the available universe of lore to paint a certain engaging picture-story) Values matter, even when they can't be realized. Rules matter, even when you're getting away with breaking them. Hypocrisy is a feature, not a bug, contrary to popular belief. Even an ill-observed rule imposes clear costs on its avoidance, etc. [1] Who can forget the line in Fiddler on the Roof, where the poor working father protagonist is fantasizing about being rich, but after singing about big houses and fancy clothes, settles on time to get educated as the greatest luxury he pines for? > "If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack > To sit in the synagogue and pray > Maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall > And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day > That would be the sweetest thing of all"
pwthornton 2y ago
Welllll, women are saying a lot of men don't do this. They are basically bums. Our great crisis is the growing number of bum men. And rather than work on being not bums, they sit around and complain online and stew.
codr7 2y ago
Pretending there is no difference between men and women is a total dead end. Emotions and social games are a lot trickier to navigate for men, who didn't have umpteen years of evolution to practice. In a lot of ways, we're expecting men to be more like women, and women more like men, while hating each other for it. Divide and conquer, the oldest game in the book.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  > In a lot of ways, we're expecting men to be more like women, and women more like men, while hating each other for it. Can you provide some specifics?
  - codr7 2y ago
    Men being expected to be in tune with their emotions to the same level, and women expected to be has ruthless and dominant as any male in business; just to pick two. The sad part is that most men "need" feminine energy to complement their own, and vice versa.
beefnugs 2y ago
But there is a difference between seeing a highly publicized and pervasive media push that there is a huge list of things you must already be good at... vs casually starting a relationship and learning along the way you must do all these things for long term success. Not to mention there is no indication from women that they will tolerate the few things you need to learn about and improve. This is why more just give up prematurely.

by Doches 2y ago

dsign 2y ago

> Being emotionally available My dad taught me boys do the opposite. My schoolmates told me that emotions were not for boys. I'm pretty sure I'm not a unique snowflake. > participating in chores Dad said that boys don't do domestic chores. If a couple lives inside an apartment, all chores are domestic. > providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time Jesus, this is not exactly trivial for most of us. > being reasonably well-read Very few of my friends, family and acquaintances are well-read. I'm pretty sure they don't even know what table stakes are. But it's not a hard requirement, they have kids anyway. > good conversationalist Not a trivial thing either. Incidentally, being well-read doesn't help if your partner is not, or if your partner is onto serious books and you like to read horny gay romps.

mikhael28 2y ago
Well, I guess don’t move to the big city and try to settle down with an IG baddie? I appreciate the fact that people like this exist, everywhere, in large quantities. But that means that the dating market, in some places, have decided there is no product market fit. Very HN statement. Now, the options are - rebrand, or move to new market, or government regulation to provide ‘protectionist’ tariffs and trade barriers to promote ‘homegrown industries’. I prefer the free market, but I can understand why the West Virginia coal miners want the government to bail them out. I’m not sure what to do about this state of events at all.
- 9dev 2y ago
  You nailed that metaphor. To the very end.

nikanj 2y ago

Are you saying we used to always expect men to do all of the above, or do you agree with me that we ask more from men than we used to?

big-green-man 2y ago

Being the perfect adult is table stakes? This description is the ideal middle class man. If that's table stakes to you, either you've got one hell of a catch or you've got a few more years left before you settle. Most adults, full grown adults, men and women, don't meet all those requirements. I do, most don't.

galdosdi 2y ago
There's actually plenty of people like that out there, but probably not where you live.
- big-green-man 2y ago
  Oh there are plenty of people like that, yes. Well, minus the "makes good money but doesnt work a lot". But that's not table stakes.
  - galdosdi 2y ago
    Agreed, that's the one part that's not table stakes as not anyone can count on it. That's a nice to have and an aspiration. I almost called that out as a minor exception, but didn't because there's still something there in spirit, namely values even if not execution: For, it is table stakes to be generally decent at having a work ethic at all, and to also value family time (within the reasonable constraints of work), and thus to do your reasonable best within your means even if that means a pretty meager, but passable material lifestyle, and/or there's an attempt to consistently make time for family regularly every week, even if it's a little limited by work schedule. It only takes 10 minutes to tuck your child in and chat with them a little and if that's all you have most days because you're busy buying food and rent for them, that's OK. You have to eat and they have to eat, so it takes no extra time to eat together, even if it's a McDonald's or a can of beans and a loaf of bread, even if it doesn't work out every day. But it's generally seen as not very good to go too extreme in one direction or the other (borderline homeless / broken home due to not working at all or habitually quitting jobs rashly without better lined up isn't OK, and "working rich" dad who never sees the kids ever and seems disinterested the one time he has an hour once week also isn't OK) A similar example of values being more important than execution, is that nothing stops a very uneducated parent from highly valuing education (and in America, this is a lot more common in Hispanic, Jewish[1], and Asian cultures, for example) and pushing their child to exceed their own meager achievement. The fact that the parent may never be able to cogently discuss the things the kid is learning once they get past elementary school doesn't really stop a darned thing. The palpable incredible pride says it all. Contrast this to the cultures where kids who try to achieve are seen as traitors and getting too big for their britches. I was very sad to know some young men in Arkansas when I went to college there who struggled with these mixed expectations, coming from a community where they felt that they would be borderline ostracized for rising "so much higher" than they started. This was one of the things in Hillbilly Elegy, which I recently read, that really rang true, even if some others seemed questionable or played up for bestseller appeal (the violent criminal uncle tall tales come to mind -- nugget of truth in them or not, they were obviously selected from the available universe of lore to paint a certain engaging picture-story) Values matter, even when they can't be realized. Rules matter, even when you're getting away with breaking them. Hypocrisy is a feature, not a bug, contrary to popular belief. Even an ill-observed rule imposes clear costs on its avoidance, etc. [1] Who can forget the line in Fiddler on the Roof, where the poor working father protagonist is fantasizing about being rich, but after singing about big houses and fancy clothes, settles on time to get educated as the greatest luxury he pines for? > "If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack > To sit in the synagogue and pray > Maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall > And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day > That would be the sweetest thing of all"

pwthornton 2y ago

Welllll, women are saying a lot of men don't do this. They are basically bums. Our great crisis is the growing number of bum men. And rather than work on being not bums, they sit around and complain online and stew.

codr7 2y ago

Pretending there is no difference between men and women is a total dead end. Emotions and social games are a lot trickier to navigate for men, who didn't have umpteen years of evolution to practice. In a lot of ways, we're expecting men to be more like women, and women more like men, while hating each other for it. Divide and conquer, the oldest game in the book.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
> In a lot of ways, we're expecting men to be more like women, and women more like men, while hating each other for it. Can you provide some specifics?
- codr7 2y ago
  Men being expected to be in tune with their emotions to the same level, and women expected to be has ruthless and dominant as any male in business; just to pick two. The sad part is that most men "need" feminine energy to complement their own, and vice versa.

beefnugs 2y ago

But there is a difference between seeing a highly publicized and pervasive media push that there is a huge list of things you must already be good at... vs casually starting a relationship and learning along the way you must do all these things for long term success. Not to mention there is no indication from women that they will tolerate the few things you need to learn about and improve. This is why more just give up prematurely.