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Anyone with anxiety or sleep issues should reexamine their caffeine usage. Maybe those problems do not stem from caffeine, but maybe they do. I don't know many

Anyone with anxiety or sleep issues should reexamine their caffeine usage. Maybe those problems do not stem from caffeine, but maybe they do. I don't know many people that do not consume caffeine regularly, at least once a day - in such cases, you cannot know whether your anxiety, sleep problems, general tiredness, bad moods, ... are or are not caused by one's caffeine consumption. Some people swear by drinking a shot of espresso right after dinner, claiming that they can "sleep just fine" (or that it even calms them). It's not whether you can or cannot fall asleep, it's how deep and restorative your sleep is that is important here.

fuzzfactor 2y ago
One of the references in this paper focuses on single sleep deprivation events of a more extreme nature, 48 hours. As I have experienced when regularly (but not often) working a 36-hour day, I wouldn't do it if it wasn't proven to be well within reach, but it's no breeze if you are the least bit tired and not fully prepared beforehand, especially when it comes to nutrition and not having anything toxic in your system. This is completely different than regularly losing sleep every night in a habitual way, which could also be considered somewhat along the lines of everyday exposure to toxic materials, whether toxins enter the body intentionally or not. Don't ask me how I know what it feels like when exposure to different milligrams of different pure industrial chemicals having known toxicity occurs in spite of state-of-the art workplace controls and PPE. I've been working these truly chemical labs all my life. Eventually I felt like I was guinea-pigging caffeine too, and it's old as the hills. The default in many cultures is to be born into a caffeine-addicted society, steeped in excess habitual ritual in a way which encourages never-ending tradition. This is over and above the physical & emotional habit-forming nature of the drug itself. Anyway, culture can be real strong, and I enjoyed being a caffeine addict. It actually takes quite a bit of effort if you want to completely withdraw from its pervasive and widespread exposure, whether commercial influence is involved or not. It's everywhere. With everyday use you build up a tolerance like anything else, and in the long run it really doesn't make a difference whether you lose an hour of sleep every night or get an extra hour, you always feel the same and have the same energy so it must be working, right? Maybe that's supposed to be a red flag. Now when you're actually a pretty good addict, you never overdo it, you're never jittery or considered extreme like a 20-cup-a-day habit which can't be that bad either when so many of them seem to do just fine. But way below any extreme consumption, you can still end up with a fairly late-night dose which actually relaxes you and then you drop off to sleep like you habitually do. Actually without it you might be a little anxious otherwise. It's just your body calling out for what it needs to be normal, due to the current level of tolerance you have built up. Hey wait a minute, wasn't I enjoying this to begin with for it's stimulant effect? Too late, that effect has left the building. This is the part that leads studies like this to less-conclusive results. For me with nothing in the bloodstream almost ever any more (and after all the dust has settled), there's only slightly more energy than being a mainstream addict. I attribute it to the relatively small amount of toxic pressure exerted by the less-than-gram quantities of caffeine I was metabolizing. Yes, I have more energy without it in my system but it's not a miracle and I'm sure many people would not think it's worth it. It's not that toxic, believe me so many things are much worse. But when I need to go another 12 hours, one cup of coffee will do it. Never could be a consideration back when I had a tolerance, stronger stimulants wouldn't even help. Real sleep is the only answer then, you just can't push to the max whenever you really want when you're already strung out. One of the things that makes the 48-hour study more conclusive about usefulness best practices. This was their reference 3: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?&title=Randomized%2C%20double-blind%2C%20placebo-controlled%2C%20crossover%20study%20of%20the%20effects%20of%20repeated-dose%20caffeine%20on%20neurobehavioral%20performance%20during%2048%20h%20of%20total%20sleep%20deprivation&journal=Psychopharmacology&doi=10.1007%2Fs00213-018-5140-0&volume=236&issue=4&pages=1313-1322&publication_year=2019&author=Hansen%2CDA&author=Ramakrishnan%2CS&author=Satterfield%2CBC&author=Wesensten%2CNJ&author=Layton%2CME&author=Reifman%2CJ http://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?&title=Randomized%2...
kachapopopow 2y ago
Caffeine makes me very sleepy if I drink it mid-day and I do in fact usually fall asleep early.
- BossingAround 2y ago
  How much caffeine do you consume regularly? Sounds to me like your body potentially has too much already, and is reacting by making you drowsy. Note that caffeine is also in non-coffee/tea related beverages like sodas (e.g. Coke/Pepsi/...), or sometimes certain pain killers (e.g. migraine pain killers frequently contain something like 50mg of caffeine).
  - kachapopopow 2y ago
    I mostly drink decaf. Not a soda drinker. Tea with sugar mostly or just plain water.
- BuggieSmalls 2y ago
  Exactly the same experience here. I have ADHD. Caffeine seems to give me a parallel (albeit lesser overall) experience to taking my prescribed Adderall.
  - kachapopopow 2y ago
    Most people around me have diagnosed ADHD, makes me wonder if the reason why I'm in such a group is because I have ADHD as well, but I don't really care for medication as I never had issues handling it on my own so not planning on getting diagnosed. And if I do, I actually prefer it since it allows me to go on for days without a break discovering solutions to very hard problems.
lostlogin 2y ago
> Anyone with anxiety or sleep issues should reexamine their caffeine usage. They should. The relationship between caffeine and mood disorders like anxiety is incompletely understood. Caffeine may help some, particularly at lower doses [1]. However some studies find that the effect on anxiety is minimal or doesn’t occur [2]. Caffeine seems to improve psychological well-being at a minimum [3]. There may be a self-medication element between ADHD and caffeine too, though the data isn’t good [3]. The interactions with medications is also complex and hard to control for due to the large number of caffeine users. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38362247/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38362247/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10616803/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10616803/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8850715/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8850715/
themaninthedark 2y ago
What about those of use who may or may not have ADD and have been using caffine to regulate our mood and focus.... I honestly can't tell at this point if the coffee is helping me focus and I have ADD or if I am just lazy(or depressed) and the coffee is helping get me motivated.
- BossingAround 2y ago
  Isn't it better to find out? I.e. first to stop with the caffeine, then wait until your body readjusts (e.g. a month or two), and possibly get diagnosed by a professional in case you do feel like you need help? Diagnosis doesn't necessarily mean prescription stimulant drugs. I was using caffeine to mask my burnout. Needless to say, it only exacerbated the total feeling of burnout, and "helped" only short-term. It took me a long time to get out of the burnout, and I'm still feeling the effects. It would have been much healthier to not mask the burnout, but deal with it right there and then.
  - sureglymop 2y ago
    How do you deal with it? Just by taking a break from everything I would imagine. But what if that's not possible? What if you're in the middle of getting a degree or need to financially support your family and can't take a break from work. Any insight into what "dealing with it" means for you?
- istjohn 2y ago
  You might want to get diagnosed so you can get a proper ADHD prescription. I'm told Vyvanse is like a smooth day-long caffeine high without the jitters or stained teeth. OTOH, if caffeine is working for you, it sounds like it's performing the same function ADHD medication does for my loved one.
  - sureglymop 2y ago
    Amphetamines generally are way stronger than coffee and can really keep you up/kill your sleep. Not that this is just from my own experience, I have ADHD and a prescription. Sleep is perhaps the biggest issue I am still dealing with.

fuzzfactor 2y ago

One of the references in this paper focuses on single sleep deprivation events of a more extreme nature, 48 hours. As I have experienced when regularly (but not often) working a 36-hour day, I wouldn't do it if it wasn't proven to be well within reach, but it's no breeze if you are the least bit tired and not fully prepared beforehand, especially when it comes to nutrition and not having anything toxic in your system. This is completely different than regularly losing sleep every night in a habitual way, which could also be considered somewhat along the lines of everyday exposure to toxic materials, whether toxins enter the body intentionally or not. Don't ask me how I know what it feels like when exposure to different milligrams of different pure industrial chemicals having known toxicity occurs in spite of state-of-the art workplace controls and PPE. I've been working these truly chemical labs all my life. Eventually I felt like I was guinea-pigging caffeine too, and it's old as the hills. The default in many cultures is to be born into a caffeine-addicted society, steeped in excess habitual ritual in a way which encourages never-ending tradition. This is over and above the physical & emotional habit-forming nature of the drug itself. Anyway, culture can be real strong, and I enjoyed being a caffeine addict. It actually takes quite a bit of effort if you want to completely withdraw from its pervasive and widespread exposure, whether commercial influence is involved or not. It's everywhere. With everyday use you build up a tolerance like anything else, and in the long run it really doesn't make a difference whether you lose an hour of sleep every night or get an extra hour, you always feel the same and have the same energy so it must be working, right? Maybe that's supposed to be a red flag. Now when you're actually a pretty good addict, you never overdo it, you're never jittery or considered extreme like a 20-cup-a-day habit which can't be that bad either when so many of them seem to do just fine. But way below any extreme consumption, you can still end up with a fairly late-night dose which actually relaxes you and then you drop off to sleep like you habitually do. Actually without it you might be a little anxious otherwise. It's just your body calling out for what it needs to be normal, due to the current level of tolerance you have built up. Hey wait a minute, wasn't I enjoying this to begin with for it's stimulant effect? Too late, that effect has left the building. This is the part that leads studies like this to less-conclusive results. For me with nothing in the bloodstream almost ever any more (and after all the dust has settled), there's only slightly more energy than being a mainstream addict. I attribute it to the relatively small amount of toxic pressure exerted by the less-than-gram quantities of caffeine I was metabolizing. Yes, I have more energy without it in my system but it's not a miracle and I'm sure many people would not think it's worth it. It's not that toxic, believe me so many things are much worse. But when I need to go another 12 hours, one cup of coffee will do it. Never could be a consideration back when I had a tolerance, stronger stimulants wouldn't even help. Real sleep is the only answer then, you just can't push to the max whenever you really want when you're already strung out. One of the things that makes the 48-hour study more conclusive about usefulness best practices. This was their reference 3: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?&title=Randomized%2C%20double-blind%2C%20placebo-controlled%2C%20crossover%20study%20of%20the%20effects%20of%20repeated-dose%20caffeine%20on%20neurobehavioral%20performance%20during%2048%20h%20of%20total%20sleep%20deprivation&journal=Psychopharmacology&doi=10.1007%2Fs00213-018-5140-0&volume=236&issue=4&pages=1313-1322&publication_year=2019&author=Hansen%2CDA&author=Ramakrishnan%2CS&author=Satterfield%2CBC&author=Wesensten%2CNJ&author=Layton%2CME&author=Reifman%2CJ http://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?&title=Randomized%2...

kachapopopow 2y ago

Caffeine makes me very sleepy if I drink it mid-day and I do in fact usually fall asleep early.

BossingAround 2y ago
How much caffeine do you consume regularly? Sounds to me like your body potentially has too much already, and is reacting by making you drowsy. Note that caffeine is also in non-coffee/tea related beverages like sodas (e.g. Coke/Pepsi/...), or sometimes certain pain killers (e.g. migraine pain killers frequently contain something like 50mg of caffeine).
- kachapopopow 2y ago
  I mostly drink decaf. Not a soda drinker. Tea with sugar mostly or just plain water.
BuggieSmalls 2y ago
Exactly the same experience here. I have ADHD. Caffeine seems to give me a parallel (albeit lesser overall) experience to taking my prescribed Adderall.
- kachapopopow 2y ago
  Most people around me have diagnosed ADHD, makes me wonder if the reason why I'm in such a group is because I have ADHD as well, but I don't really care for medication as I never had issues handling it on my own so not planning on getting diagnosed. And if I do, I actually prefer it since it allows me to go on for days without a break discovering solutions to very hard problems.

lostlogin 2y ago

> Anyone with anxiety or sleep issues should reexamine their caffeine usage. They should. The relationship between caffeine and mood disorders like anxiety is incompletely understood. Caffeine may help some, particularly at lower doses [1]. However some studies find that the effect on anxiety is minimal or doesn’t occur [2]. Caffeine seems to improve psychological well-being at a minimum [3]. There may be a self-medication element between ADHD and caffeine too, though the data isn’t good [3]. The interactions with medications is also complex and hard to control for due to the large number of caffeine users. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38362247/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38362247/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10616803/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10616803/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8850715/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8850715/

themaninthedark 2y ago

What about those of use who may or may not have ADD and have been using caffine to regulate our mood and focus.... I honestly can't tell at this point if the coffee is helping me focus and I have ADD or if I am just lazy(or depressed) and the coffee is helping get me motivated.

BossingAround 2y ago
Isn't it better to find out? I.e. first to stop with the caffeine, then wait until your body readjusts (e.g. a month or two), and possibly get diagnosed by a professional in case you do feel like you need help? Diagnosis doesn't necessarily mean prescription stimulant drugs. I was using caffeine to mask my burnout. Needless to say, it only exacerbated the total feeling of burnout, and "helped" only short-term. It took me a long time to get out of the burnout, and I'm still feeling the effects. It would have been much healthier to not mask the burnout, but deal with it right there and then.
- sureglymop 2y ago
  How do you deal with it? Just by taking a break from everything I would imagine. But what if that's not possible? What if you're in the middle of getting a degree or need to financially support your family and can't take a break from work. Any insight into what "dealing with it" means for you?
istjohn 2y ago
You might want to get diagnosed so you can get a proper ADHD prescription. I'm told Vyvanse is like a smooth day-long caffeine high without the jitters or stained teeth. OTOH, if caffeine is working for you, it sounds like it's performing the same function ADHD medication does for my loved one.
- sureglymop 2y ago
  Amphetamines generally are way stronger than coffee and can really keep you up/kill your sleep. Not that this is just from my own experience, I have ADHD and a prescription. Sleep is perhaps the biggest issue I am still dealing with.