5 ms·

I know from various empirical sources that ABA works way better than the alternatives. But how about the gay conversion therapy? Can anybody do any real scien

by raducu 2y ago

I know from various empirical sources that ABA works way better than the alternatives. But how about the gay conversion therapy? Can anybody do any real science on that or any scientist that would touch the topic would have to say goodbye to his career?

Yawrehto 2y ago
It "works" by forcing people to hide who they are. It's like saying that you got rid of people with brown hair by making them dye it something else, only instead of hair color it's a fundamental part of who they are and it greatly increases the risk of PTSD and it only works if you're measuring the wrong thing and instead of basing it on the autistic person's ability to be okay it bases it on society's expectations and it's child abuse and just no. When autistic people are speaking[1] out[2] en[3] masse[4] against[5] it[6], would you ignore what they say? When they say[7] it's[8] bad[9] and[10] unethical[11] and[12] abusive[13] do you say that it isn't? When a woman goes to a police station saying that she is a victim of domestic violence, should the police say it works way better than the alternatives? Should they reject her statements that it is harmful and bad? If a child comes up to you and says that their parents are beating them and screaming at them if they do poorly in school, would you say that it works way better than the alternatives? Or is it only okay when the person is autistic? [1] https://a4aontario.com/2018/05/24/why-we-oppose-aba-in-any-form/ https://a4aontario.com/2018/05/24/why-we-oppose-aba-in-any-f... [note: a lot of these are personal blogs] [2] https://autisticselfadvocatesagainstaba.wordpress.com/2020/04/13/problematic-and-traumatic-why-nobody-needs-aba/ https://autisticselfadvocatesagainstaba.wordpress.com/2020/0... [3] https://neurodifferent.me/@joshsusser/111495271981897561 https://neurodifferent.me/@joshsusser/111495271981897561 [4] https://autisticadvocacy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/First-Hand-Perspectives-on-Behavioral-Interventions-for-Autistic-People-and-People-with-other-Developmental-Disabilities.pdf https://autisticadvocacy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Firs... [5] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41252-021-00201-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41252-021-00201-1, by an autistic author. [6] https://autisticscienceperson.com/why-aba-therapy-is-harmful-to-autistic-people/ https://autisticscienceperson.com/why-aba-therapy-is-harmful... [7] https://loveexplosions.net/2013/09/15/touch-nose-gummi-bear-what-is-aba-and-why-does-it-suck/ https://loveexplosions.net/2013/09/15/touch-nose-gummi-bear-... [8] https://www.the74million.org/article/no-more-cures-no-more-fixes-how-autistic-leaders-are-changing-the-therapy-debate/ https://www.the74million.org/article/no-more-cures-no-more-f... [9] https://awnnetwork.org/my-thoughts-on-aba/ https://awnnetwork.org/my-thoughts-on-aba/ [10] https://unstrangemind.com/aba/ https://unstrangemind.com/aba/ [11]https://www.the74million.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Ethical-Concerns-with-Applied-Behavior-Analysis-for-Autism-Spectrum-Disorder-2020-01-01.pdf https://www.the74million.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Ethi... [12] https://stopabasupportautistics.home.blog/2019/08/11/personal-stories-from-those-formerly-enrolled-in-aba/ https://stopabasupportautistics.home.blog/2019/08/11/persona... [13] https://neuroclastic.com/aba-horror-stories-are-far-too-common/ https://neuroclastic.com/aba-horror-stories-are-far-too-comm...
contravariant 2y ago
Any real science is probably out of the question, but is that really that unusual? Plenty of subjects are impossible to research for ethical reasons. I think some data on hypothermia is still only known because of some of the terrible things nazis did.
- benterix 2y ago
  Why in this case though? I imagine someone who is gay may at some point feel they are unhappy with that and see if there are any options for them. If, for political reasons, we treat the whole subject as taboo, it's basically failing vulnerable people who might need help.
  - contravariant 2y ago
    That's a lot of hypotheticals, and frankly that situation is not too unusual in medicine. They take first do no harm quite seriously. Heck we could have gathered quite a lot of very important and useful data by deliberately infecting a few thousand people with Covid, or even just placing them at risk. To my knowledge none of the obvious experiments on the infectiousness of Covid or the effect of countermeasures happened.
    - benterix 2y ago
      I see your point. But I sometimes wonder how much harm we actually do by being afraid to confront the current political opinions. I believe at least in the UK, after the Tavistock scandal, people started asking questions. I mean, you mention taking do no harm seriously, and at the same time doctors give children puberty blockers sometimes after just two visits, knowing it will negatively impact their physical health (bone density, growth, and many others), to move almost all kids on to hormones - in spite of the fact that the study they themselves published shows there are no improvements in their mental health. And people who decided to start asking questions faced a lot of negativity, just for trying to understand how things really are.
      - 2y ago
mschuster91 2y ago
> I know from various empirical sources that ABA works way better than the alternatives. The question is which definition of "works" you're using. If you're defining "it works" as "the person is able to live in society", then yes, the victim of "classic" ABA may be a "member of society"... but if you include "the person is a mentally stable and healthy individual", then not. Mentally, the victim will be completely broken and traumatized, often enough going through many suicide attempts until they succeed. ABA is torture, so is "gay/trans conversion therapy", and IMHO those advocating it, supporting it or tolerating it should be treated like everyone else involved with torture: lock them up, and in the USA where capital punishment is still on the books, go through with it. Actual "behavioral therapy", aka teaching people with autism how to communicate their needs or how to manage frustration [1], is a completely different beast, and that actually works. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find out what "therapy" scheme will be used, and there's an awful lot of ABA peddlers out there. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/15jayxu/comment/juzra95/ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/15jayxu/...
- raducu 2y ago
  >. "the person is a mentally stable and healthy individual", then not. Some 4 years ago I went through an autism scare with my daughter and booked a 2 day course for parents of children with autism about ABA therapy, held by one of the first parents who cured autism in his child in my country. One of the best courses in my life, and if we could clone that guy and his team, I'm sure ABA therapy would be a lot more efective and the world would be a better place. Anyway, my daughter was completely neurotypical (the trainers explained that even though she was 1.3 years old and nobody could say for sure at that age, a lot of items in her behavior were neurotypical and how those items would have differed in a child with autism). There's a huge deal we don't know yet (why 40-50% of children are completely unresponsive to ABA), and ABA is a huge umbrela for a vast array of techniques, but I'm convinced the approach is solid, and the way to go forward. The issue is the really experienced people who know the high level stuff in ABA go to the "supervisor"/therapy planner role and they work with therapists of various levels in individual therapies. I was taken aback when they showed us the cognitive/emotional skill sets/inventory for children at various ages. There are HUNDREDS of items they work on and evaluate on. For each one of those skills there are a few known therapies. Working on each one takes time. Some skills build on other skills. It's probably impossible that a single therapist has all the right personal skills and personal chemistry with a child to work on all the skills. And it's usually a race against time. So you have a supervisor, a team of 2-3 therapists that work with a child for 8 hours a day. It's very expensive when done right. It's impossible that mistakes are not made, and I'm talking if you get the best supervisors money can buy, the best therapists money can buy, which is usually not the case. The information about the inventory of cognitive/emotional skills ABA has to train in order to "cure" autism made me realize just how complex human beings are, and I'm surprised given this information that the incidence of mental issues is so LOW in the general population, given how many things can go wrong with the human psyche when developing. But the approach seemed very solid, scientific and professional, though misunderstood by many and I'm sure mistakes are impossible to avoid. I've seen other "psychologists" of dubious lineages and while I've only seen a few, the difference was just staggering -- the ABA guys looked like professionals knowing their stuff, knowing their limitations, while the various mono-therapists looked like complete amateurs and full of shit. So I do have faith and hope that in the future, as ABA is refined, things will get better, but the bad labels ABA gets are hurting progress a lot more than they help.

by raducu 2y ago

Yawrehto 2y ago

It "works" by forcing people to hide who they are. It's like saying that you got rid of people with brown hair by making them dye it something else, only instead of hair color it's a fundamental part of who they are and it greatly increases the risk of PTSD and it only works if you're measuring the wrong thing and instead of basing it on the autistic person's ability to be okay it bases it on society's expectations and it's child abuse and just no. When autistic people are speaking[1] out[2] en[3] masse[4] against[5] it[6], would you ignore what they say? When they say[7] it's[8] bad[9] and[10] unethical[11] and[12] abusive[13] do you say that it isn't? When a woman goes to a police station saying that she is a victim of domestic violence, should the police say it works way better than the alternatives? Should they reject her statements that it is harmful and bad? If a child comes up to you and says that their parents are beating them and screaming at them if they do poorly in school, would you say that it works way better than the alternatives? Or is it only okay when the person is autistic? [1] https://a4aontario.com/2018/05/24/why-we-oppose-aba-in-any-form/ https://a4aontario.com/2018/05/24/why-we-oppose-aba-in-any-f... [note: a lot of these are personal blogs] [2] https://autisticselfadvocatesagainstaba.wordpress.com/2020/04/13/problematic-and-traumatic-why-nobody-needs-aba/ https://autisticselfadvocatesagainstaba.wordpress.com/2020/0... [3] https://neurodifferent.me/@joshsusser/111495271981897561 https://neurodifferent.me/@joshsusser/111495271981897561 [4] https://autisticadvocacy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/First-Hand-Perspectives-on-Behavioral-Interventions-for-Autistic-People-and-People-with-other-Developmental-Disabilities.pdf https://autisticadvocacy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Firs... [5] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41252-021-00201-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41252-021-00201-1, by an autistic author. [6] https://autisticscienceperson.com/why-aba-therapy-is-harmful-to-autistic-people/ https://autisticscienceperson.com/why-aba-therapy-is-harmful... [7] https://loveexplosions.net/2013/09/15/touch-nose-gummi-bear-what-is-aba-and-why-does-it-suck/ https://loveexplosions.net/2013/09/15/touch-nose-gummi-bear-... [8] https://www.the74million.org/article/no-more-cures-no-more-fixes-how-autistic-leaders-are-changing-the-therapy-debate/ https://www.the74million.org/article/no-more-cures-no-more-f... [9] https://awnnetwork.org/my-thoughts-on-aba/ https://awnnetwork.org/my-thoughts-on-aba/ [10] https://unstrangemind.com/aba/ https://unstrangemind.com/aba/ [11]https://www.the74million.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Ethical-Concerns-with-Applied-Behavior-Analysis-for-Autism-Spectrum-Disorder-2020-01-01.pdf https://www.the74million.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Ethi... [12] https://stopabasupportautistics.home.blog/2019/08/11/personal-stories-from-those-formerly-enrolled-in-aba/ https://stopabasupportautistics.home.blog/2019/08/11/persona... [13] https://neuroclastic.com/aba-horror-stories-are-far-too-common/ https://neuroclastic.com/aba-horror-stories-are-far-too-comm...

contravariant 2y ago

Any real science is probably out of the question, but is that really that unusual? Plenty of subjects are impossible to research for ethical reasons. I think some data on hypothermia is still only known because of some of the terrible things nazis did.

benterix 2y ago
Why in this case though? I imagine someone who is gay may at some point feel they are unhappy with that and see if there are any options for them. If, for political reasons, we treat the whole subject as taboo, it's basically failing vulnerable people who might need help.
- contravariant 2y ago
  That's a lot of hypotheticals, and frankly that situation is not too unusual in medicine. They take first do no harm quite seriously. Heck we could have gathered quite a lot of very important and useful data by deliberately infecting a few thousand people with Covid, or even just placing them at risk. To my knowledge none of the obvious experiments on the infectiousness of Covid or the effect of countermeasures happened.
  - benterix 2y ago
    I see your point. But I sometimes wonder how much harm we actually do by being afraid to confront the current political opinions. I believe at least in the UK, after the Tavistock scandal, people started asking questions. I mean, you mention taking do no harm seriously, and at the same time doctors give children puberty blockers sometimes after just two visits, knowing it will negatively impact their physical health (bone density, growth, and many others), to move almost all kids on to hormones - in spite of the fact that the study they themselves published shows there are no improvements in their mental health. And people who decided to start asking questions faced a lot of negativity, just for trying to understand how things really are.
    - 2y ago

mschuster91 2y ago

> I know from various empirical sources that ABA works way better than the alternatives. The question is which definition of "works" you're using. If you're defining "it works" as "the person is able to live in society", then yes, the victim of "classic" ABA may be a "member of society"... but if you include "the person is a mentally stable and healthy individual", then not. Mentally, the victim will be completely broken and traumatized, often enough going through many suicide attempts until they succeed. ABA is torture, so is "gay/trans conversion therapy", and IMHO those advocating it, supporting it or tolerating it should be treated like everyone else involved with torture: lock them up, and in the USA where capital punishment is still on the books, go through with it. Actual "behavioral therapy", aka teaching people with autism how to communicate their needs or how to manage frustration [1], is a completely different beast, and that actually works. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find out what "therapy" scheme will be used, and there's an awful lot of ABA peddlers out there. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/15jayxu/comment/juzra95/ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/15jayxu/...

raducu 2y ago
>. "the person is a mentally stable and healthy individual", then not. Some 4 years ago I went through an autism scare with my daughter and booked a 2 day course for parents of children with autism about ABA therapy, held by one of the first parents who cured autism in his child in my country. One of the best courses in my life, and if we could clone that guy and his team, I'm sure ABA therapy would be a lot more efective and the world would be a better place. Anyway, my daughter was completely neurotypical (the trainers explained that even though she was 1.3 years old and nobody could say for sure at that age, a lot of items in her behavior were neurotypical and how those items would have differed in a child with autism). There's a huge deal we don't know yet (why 40-50% of children are completely unresponsive to ABA), and ABA is a huge umbrela for a vast array of techniques, but I'm convinced the approach is solid, and the way to go forward. The issue is the really experienced people who know the high level stuff in ABA go to the "supervisor"/therapy planner role and they work with therapists of various levels in individual therapies. I was taken aback when they showed us the cognitive/emotional skill sets/inventory for children at various ages. There are HUNDREDS of items they work on and evaluate on. For each one of those skills there are a few known therapies. Working on each one takes time. Some skills build on other skills. It's probably impossible that a single therapist has all the right personal skills and personal chemistry with a child to work on all the skills. And it's usually a race against time. So you have a supervisor, a team of 2-3 therapists that work with a child for 8 hours a day. It's very expensive when done right. It's impossible that mistakes are not made, and I'm talking if you get the best supervisors money can buy, the best therapists money can buy, which is usually not the case. The information about the inventory of cognitive/emotional skills ABA has to train in order to "cure" autism made me realize just how complex human beings are, and I'm surprised given this information that the incidence of mental issues is so LOW in the general population, given how many things can go wrong with the human psyche when developing. But the approach seemed very solid, scientific and professional, though misunderstood by many and I'm sure mistakes are impossible to avoid. I've seen other "psychologists" of dubious lineages and while I've only seen a few, the difference was just staggering -- the ABA guys looked like professionals knowing their stuff, knowing their limitations, while the various mono-therapists looked like complete amateurs and full of shit. So I do have faith and hope that in the future, as ABA is refined, things will get better, but the bad labels ABA gets are hurting progress a lot more than they help.