3 ms·

I fear that this project, just like almost all other similar ones, just spread a false sense of a "sustainable, privacy and security focused free software mobil

I fear that this project, just like almost all other similar ones, just spread a false sense of a "sustainable, privacy and security focused free software mobile OS". Almost all mobile devices, and surely all smartphones and tablets, require a large number of so-called "vendor blobs" (or just a single huge one) needed to operate almost all the hardware: wifi, Bluetooth, baseband "modem" and even GNSS receivers and touch input. Those vendor-provided, undocumented and closed source software all need to run with high privilege levels, aka root. Thus they can do, intercept and inject almost anything within the device with no user interaction or authorization. So, IMHO, all those projects simply give users "more power", but only as far as the vendors allow for. While an unknown amount of power is used by some other third (or fourth or fifth) party silently and undetected. A small example. That super secure auditable open source communication application does use strong cryptography, but still needs to use those blobs for unencrypted human-oriented I/O. Whatever you type, scan display and record will need to get in through those blobs in an unencrypted (or maybe backdoored) blobs to get to and from the user or before getting through the encryption mill. Have you ever heard about those spying or surveillance Trojans? Those are them! How can we trust that? Simply we cannot. We just pretend it will be a fair play in a game we don't fully know.

wiz21c 2y ago
Don't you exagerate a bit ? I mean, of course I can never be sure of anything, but that's just like that with my PC computer, my laptop, my whatever. But, the simple fact of being able to bypass the whole google stack is a already an important thing to me. More trust is already a bit better than no trust at all... And PostmarketOS is not about building phone. For someone buidling a new phone, I feel your comment is more relevant.
- notorandit 2y ago
  I don't think I exaggerate. I think I am looking at bare facts. Unless proven otherwise.
agile-gift0262 2y ago
They still provide value, as they reduce the amount of parties you have to blindly trust and the amount of ToS and privacy policies you have to accept.
- notorandit 2y ago
  Postmarket indeed delivers value to users. I simply say it maybe not a "sustainable, privacy and security focused free software mobile OS". I would make it clear that those blobs are still needed to make it working and that 100% trust or security or privacy cannot be achieved.
anthk 2y ago
As a diehard GNU guy, at least it's good to have PostmarketOS where you could just throw the propietary firmware to the trash and/or maybe burn the telephony module, either fisically or disable it with AT commands. For touch input I'm pretty sure X.Org/Wayland and such will do it fine with vanilla modules. Or better, you can repurpose an old tablet (not phones related) as a homemade netbook with some OTG module and a keyboard. With tablets and cheap ARM Chinese netbooks it's where PmOS shines.
- notorandit 2y ago
  You cannot reliably "throw the propietary firmware to the trash and/or maybe burn the telephony module, either phisically or disable it with AT commands" as there is no or too little documentation available. Moreover, a device with no communication mean is as useful as a bike to a fish. Again, all of those non-proprietary software is for the CPU. The rest of the hardware requires those blobs.
  - anthk 2y ago
    >a device with no comm... For you, maybe. If wireless works, I could install all the required packages for thinkering and then disconnect it forever for offline programming/gaming or even news reading, or as a nice mp3/video/ebook reader plus a cool ScummVM interpreter to play point and click games. Not everyone needs a 4G connection.
    - notorandit 2y ago
      Wifi and bluetooth won't work without the blob. Not even the touch. This slips why I am puzzled. Maybe just USB. But I wouldn't bet on that.
      - anthk 2y ago
        USB OTG adapter + a cheap atheros device. Also, on wireless, most of the modules are on the non-free mainline Linux kernel, but owning GNU/Linux + prop fw device it's far better than an opaque Android one even if PmOS is not fully free as GNU distros state. From there it's easy to scale up on a freedom ladder. Also, PmOS it's not just about smartphones. Once the Tokio Techbook support gets better, you can repurpose cheap $30-40 dollars ARM netbooks with PmOS as a light hacking/writting/multimedia device with something like cwm/dwm/fluxbox and light software such as mplayer, mupdf, netsurf...
exe34 2y ago
What's your threat model?

wiz21c 2y ago

Don't you exagerate a bit ? I mean, of course I can never be sure of anything, but that's just like that with my PC computer, my laptop, my whatever. But, the simple fact of being able to bypass the whole google stack is a already an important thing to me. More trust is already a bit better than no trust at all... And PostmarketOS is not about building phone. For someone buidling a new phone, I feel your comment is more relevant.

notorandit 2y ago
I don't think I exaggerate. I think I am looking at bare facts. Unless proven otherwise.

agile-gift0262 2y ago

They still provide value, as they reduce the amount of parties you have to blindly trust and the amount of ToS and privacy policies you have to accept.

notorandit 2y ago
Postmarket indeed delivers value to users. I simply say it maybe not a "sustainable, privacy and security focused free software mobile OS". I would make it clear that those blobs are still needed to make it working and that 100% trust or security or privacy cannot be achieved.

anthk 2y ago

As a diehard GNU guy, at least it's good to have PostmarketOS where you could just throw the propietary firmware to the trash and/or maybe burn the telephony module, either fisically or disable it with AT commands. For touch input I'm pretty sure X.Org/Wayland and such will do it fine with vanilla modules. Or better, you can repurpose an old tablet (not phones related) as a homemade netbook with some OTG module and a keyboard. With tablets and cheap ARM Chinese netbooks it's where PmOS shines.

notorandit 2y ago
You cannot reliably "throw the propietary firmware to the trash and/or maybe burn the telephony module, either phisically or disable it with AT commands" as there is no or too little documentation available. Moreover, a device with no communication mean is as useful as a bike to a fish. Again, all of those non-proprietary software is for the CPU. The rest of the hardware requires those blobs.
- anthk 2y ago
  >a device with no comm... For you, maybe. If wireless works, I could install all the required packages for thinkering and then disconnect it forever for offline programming/gaming or even news reading, or as a nice mp3/video/ebook reader plus a cool ScummVM interpreter to play point and click games. Not everyone needs a 4G connection.
  - notorandit 2y ago
    Wifi and bluetooth won't work without the blob. Not even the touch. This slips why I am puzzled. Maybe just USB. But I wouldn't bet on that.
    - anthk 2y ago
      USB OTG adapter + a cheap atheros device. Also, on wireless, most of the modules are on the non-free mainline Linux kernel, but owning GNU/Linux + prop fw device it's far better than an opaque Android one even if PmOS is not fully free as GNU distros state. From there it's easy to scale up on a freedom ladder. Also, PmOS it's not just about smartphones. Once the Tokio Techbook support gets better, you can repurpose cheap $30-40 dollars ARM netbooks with PmOS as a light hacking/writting/multimedia device with something like cwm/dwm/fluxbox and light software such as mplayer, mupdf, netsurf...

exe34 2y ago

What's your threat model?